422 replies to this topic

[minim@t]

I don't think Tanya is asking for special treatment but acceptance that the bmw mini is part of classic mini scene, and as this is a "BMW mini tollerant" yet the car still gets openly slated and abused. Can like minded people not discuss their cars with others without the abuse is what she is saying, not a technical section but a general, like the engine conversions. Some feel it is wrong to be putting another engine in

The point Tanya is missing is that the BMW MINI is NOT part of the classic mini scene. No matter how much BMW want to be accepted, it is made by another company, is bigger and is not a classic. 99% of BMW MINI owners don't care about, know about or even think there car has anything to do with the classic mini. The remaining minority just want to cash in on a heritage that their car does not deserve. We have more members with VWs than BMW MINIs so why should we give the MINI more consideration than the VW?

Like it or not the MINI is a growing part of the 'Mini' scene in general around the world. Many of the people building and engineering it are the same Rover workers in Oxford with long years of service, visit the factory on a tour and see for yourself. (I joined a British Manufacturing Company 25 years ago, it is has changed to foreign ownership and name several times, is now American owned but the many of the workers, local management and buildings, factory are the same...........it happens in a global economy), the Mini was not a classic for the majority of the 35+ years I have owned one but it made no difference to me then or now, the R53 MCS will be the first MINI to become a classic without a doubt, no one has the % figures for what MINI owners care about...........but most of the 'enthusiast' MINI owners I know or have met know and care about the classic, VW has no connection with the Mini unlike MINI but could perhaps be catered for in a members 'other cars' section as on some other forums if demand was there......

So if vw can use the other cars section why can't bini owners do the same?

[Scallywag630]

So if vw can use the other cars section why can't bini owners do the same?

That was not what was being asked for. Bini owners wanted their own section.

One hypothetical question.....Should BMW sell the MINI name to FIAT, and Fiat put the MINI badge on a totally different car, would bini owners accept that car as a true MINI?

[minim@t]

So if vw can use the other cars section why can't bini owners do the same?

That was not what was being asked for. Bini owners wanted their own section.


Be a means to an end ( for now)



One hypothetical question.....Should BMW sell the MINI name to FIAT, and Fiat put the MINI badge on a totally different car, would bini owners accept that car as a true MINI?

Doubt they'd be very happy, wonder if they might get where we are coming from then

[mattdc2r]

Ok, another hypothetical question.

What if Rover were still about and they had brought out the New mini. Would we still be having the debate/argument?

[bamby]

Ok, another hypothetical question.

What if Rover were still about and they had brought out the New mini. Would we still be having the debate/argument?

more than likely - look at the reactions of VW beetle owners when VW brought out the new look beetle.

however it has allready been stated in previous posts that someone else is now trying to provide a forum that caters for both mini and MINI.

whilst the debate is good, it should be refered back to fact of a separate section for the New MINI, rather than that of the polotics that surround the two cars.

I reiterate my previous point that I personally feel that the forum as yet cannot fully meet the needs of these potential users, and until we are able to do so we should still continue to redirect people to the other forums that are appropriate to their needs.

[Scallywag630]

Ok, another hypothetical question.

What if Rover were still about and they had brought out the New mini. Would we still be having the debate/argument?

Maybe not, but Rover would not have screwed so many mini part suppliers. Anyway Rover has gone so your scenerio could not happen.....Fiat could buy MINI

[Bungle]

Ok, another hypothetical question.

What if Rover were still about and they had brought out the New mini. Would we still be having the debate/argument?

as mini metro's don't have their own section then probably yes

[Tanya]

If it was only acceptance then that could be accommodated. This is how ever a BINI tolerant forum. But its not all she wants is it, it doesnt stop there.... For me demanding a special section is asking for special treatment.

I have not demanded a special section. What I have asked for (and received) is the opportunity to be able to express my opinions, have them discussed and challenged and to be able to discuss and challenge others views without the threat of this thread either being closed as it is considered exhausted or by any poor behaviour as has been the case in other mini/MINI threads. This has not been the case so far with this one, which is great and I am really pleased about.

I have advocated my views in favour of a section for MINI (as I think is on the Mini Cooper Register's Forum, I hope I have that correct) and is found at many mini events (shows, runs and meets). I take on board all the comments both for and against, and can appreciate the more practical issues, such as bandwidth (sorry not sure exactly what that is, but get the general idea), setting it up and moderating it and I am sure that there are other practical ones that I do not know of. I do listen and think and have thought this through many times and I can and do alter my views. However, given all I have read on here, conversations that I have had and observations from mini events, I still believe that a section for MINI within this, a mini forum, is good for the mini scene. That is my view, and not a demand!

Edited by Tanya, 29 December 2010 - 12:49 AM.

[dave585]

Hopefully this will help providing you will direct people there in a polite manner,
The forum is now live and is at www.miniunitednotdivided.freeforums.org
Hopefully this will sort out the differences, hopefully we can work together.
Thanks
Dave585

[Scallywag630]

Do you think that Metros should have their own section? Afterall they are closer to mini than bini!

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and many have put forward eloquent arguments for and against. However, I see no purpose in continuing a lost cause. The MINI section proposed is not going to happen for the forseeable future.

I ask again the hypothetical question that none have yet answered:

...Should BMW sell the MINI name to FIAT, and Fiat put the MINI badge on a totally different car, would bini owners accept that car as a true MINI?

I doubt they would just as the majority of classic owners don't except bini as a true mini. Forget all the rubbish about same factory staff etc...it was designed and built by a seperate company.

[mattdc2r]

Scallywag630. It was me that asked about a BMW Mini section. This I have explained and at the moment I am not a Bini owner.
The metro thing is pointless, metro was to replace the mini, not take it forward in to the 21st century.

Most BMW mini owners probably wouldn't be all that bothered if fiat bought Mini, it'd add a bit of kudos being under the same umbrella as ferarri. IMO.

The scene is evolving, if we all carry on with blinkered views and opinions we'll get left behind.
Maybe we don't have many bini specialists on the forum to offer advice, but there are plenty of very clued up people on here that could figure it out.

I really don't understand what is with the elitest attitude from some forum members, It's just the sort of thing classic mini owners complained about 5-10 years ago, but from Bini owners. Get over it.

Edited by mattdc2r, 28 December 2010 - 09:46 PM.

[Tanya]

Do you think that Metros should have their own section? Afterall they are closer to mini than bini!

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and many have put forward eloquent arguments for and against. However, I see no purpose in continuing a lost cause. The MINI section proposed is not going to happen for the forseeable future.

I ask again the hypothetical question that none have yet answered:

...Should BMW sell the MINI name to FIAT, and Fiat put the MINI badge on a totally different car, would bini owners accept that car as a true MINI?

I doubt they would just as the majority of classic owners don't except bini as a true mini. Forget all the rubbish about same factory staff etc...it was designed and built by a seperate company.

I too agree that there have been good points made on both sides of the debate.

Over Metro, to keep it simple, you do not tend to see Metros (I have seen the very rare one or two) at mini shows. I have seen MINIs at L2B, British Mini Club's shows and Ace Cafe meets to name a few. For me, this is one way that makes them part of mini scene - they are there, with their owners.

You may consider this a lost cause, I do not. I am not looking for immediate change, but to be part of a gradually and slowly (as these things do take time - years!) evolving mini scene that does currently include MINI to some degree. It is debates like these over time that are part of what informs people and allows them to think through options and scenarios. I did not change my opinion over MINI over night, it has taken he several years and I know that at times I continue to struggle with MINI/mini and without a doubt, along with conversations and observations from mini events, debates on here have helped me think through the issue.

For the hypothetic question, I have to say I am not a fan of them as I do not think they prove anything, but I can see a sort of similarity with the CityRover. Should BMW sell the MINI name to Fiat, and Fiat put the MINI badge on a totally different car, I would say people would not accept it. I feel this is like the CityRover, badged as an MG Rover, but from my understanding (sorry, it is a bit week on CityRover) MG Rover had little input into the design and it was not built in this country, and therefore people could not feel a connection to it - there wasn't one. I know, it probably did not help that apparently it was not a good car, but I don't think people viewed it as an MG Rover.

However, while you might consider it rubbish about 'same factory staff etc...it was designed and built by a separate company', others including me do not share that view. Rover, (yes, while owned by BMW but still employing people in Longbridge) started the work on MINI so that is a real connection and my understanding is that a very small number of MINIs, pre-production ones, where built there. There are other smaller connections like mini was built at both Cowley and Longbridge for the first few years of production, and now MINI is built at Cowley (well MINI Plant Oxford - I think that is its proper name!). Others do not have to think these are valid reasons, but I feel they are.

[Scallywag630]

Scallywag630. It was me that asked about a BMW Mini section. This I have explained and at the moment I am not a Bini owner.
The metro thing is pointless, metro was to replace the mini, not take it forward in to the 21st century.

And the MINI was not meant to replace the mini?

Most BMW mini owners probably wouldn't be all that bothered if fiat bought Mini, it'd add a bit of kudos being under the same umbrella as ferarri. IMO.

Thank you for reinforcing our point that most BMW MINI owners buy it, not for it;s connection to mini, but, in your own words, for a bit of kudos or as a fashion statement.

The scene is evolving, if we all carry on with blinkered views and opinions we'll get left behind.

Blinkered only if you have an opposing opinion. And left behind what? There is not a single BMW MINI model that is anywhere near attaining classic status. Accept it for what it is...a fairly good mass produced medium size moderm car.

Maybe we don't have many bini specialists on the forum to offer advice, but there are plenty of very clued up people on here that could figure it out.

The forum does not people to "figure out" advice. That leads to the wrong answers being given which could be potentially dangerous.

I really don't understand what is with the elitest attitude from some forum members, It's just the sort of thing classic mini owners complained about 5-10 years ago, but from Bini owners. Get over it.

It not a question of elitism....as far as the classic mini owners are concerned the BMW MINI is NOT it's successor. I suggest that MINI enthusiasts, whether owners or not, get over the fact that the car they enthuse about does not have and never will have the heritage of mini.

[Scallywag630]

[quote name='Tanya' post='2005774' date='Dec 28 2010, 10:18 PM']I too agree that there have been good points made on both sides of the debate.

Over Metro, to keep it simple, you do not tend to see Metros (I have seen the very rare one or two) at mini shows. I have seen MINIs at L2B, British Mini Club's shows and Ace Cafe meets to name a few. For me, this is one way that makes them part of mini scene - they are there, with their owners.

You may consider this a lost cause, I do not. I am not looking for immediate change, but to be part of a gradually and slowly (as these things do take time - years!) evolving mini scene that does currently include MINI to some degree. It is debates like these over time that are part of what informs people and allows them to think through options and scenarios. I did not change my opinion over MINI over night, it has taken he several years and I know that at times I continue to struggle with MINI/mini and without a doubt, along with conversations and observations from mini events, debates on here have helped me think through the issue.

For the hypothetic question, I have to say I am not a fan of them as I do not think they prove anything, but I can see a sort of similarity with the CityRover. Should BMW sell the MINI name to Fiat, and Fiat put the MINI badge on a totally different car, I would say people would not accept it.

Then why should we accept MINI? Surely the same argument applies.

I feel this is like the CityRover, badged as an MG Rover, but from my understanding (sorry, it is a bit week on CityRover) MG Rover had little input into the design and it was not built in this country, and therefore people could not feel a connection to it - there wasn't one. I know, it probably did not help that apparently it was not a good car, but I don't think people viewed it as an MG Rover.

However, while you might consider it rubbish about 'same factory staff etc...it was designed and built by a separate company', others including me do not share that view.

Its not a view, it is a fact. Not a single MINI was built by Rover.

Rover, (yes, while owned by BMW but still employing people in Longbridge) started the work on MINI so that is a real connection and my understanding is that a very small number of MINIs, pre-production ones, where built there. There are other smaller connections like mini was built at both Cowley and Longbridge for the first few years of production, and now MINI is built at Cowley (well MINI Plant Oxford - I think that is its proper name!). Others do not have to think these are valid reasons, but I feel they are.

It does not matter where its built, it was not made to Issigonis' design,not built by Austin,Morris,Wolesley, Riley or Rover and therefore not a mini. If you were to buy a skirt that was advertised as a mini skirt and then you found it to come two feet below your waist, would you say "well its a new type of mini"?

Why do you think BMW called their car MINI? Why not Metro, Allegro, or anyother name?[/quote]

Edited by Scallywag630, 28 December 2010 - 11:27 PM.

[charie t]

Stone the crows, I best not mention my car is a Riley elf then

Edited by charie t, 28 December 2010 - 11:22 PM.