356 replies to this topic

[1960Zody]

How do we go about finding out what Morris/Austin/BL/BMC/Rover classed as the Monococque though? None of the companies mentioned exist anymore. What stops the DVLA coming up with their own idea of what "they" think it is?

A generalisation, based on what DVLA said to us, and this is not gospel from them, it's an interpretation of what they said, can be that the monocoque is Floor-pan, any bulkheads, the A, B and C pillars and the roof rails that connect them.
(DVLA said Floor-pan and 'Cage).

Where that leaves the front end of a Mini is open for debate, although we have had something through which I need to check to make sure that I understand it before I publish, which relates to Flip Fronts.

I hope you understand that I don't want to say something that gets contradicted because I've mis-understood the wording.

[BoboGib]

Thanks for that Steve, it's nice to have someone on ourside spending the time to sort things out. I'm eagerly awaiting the answer to the flip front question as i'm on standby to order new panels if need be.

[Shifty]

Hmmm, i can feel a sudden rush of enquires about changing a flip front back to a metal one!!!

Still makes a change from being asked to fit flip fronts!!!

[Bungle]

i think the flip/removeable front question is going to be one of the most asked in the mini world

[BenH]

ahhhhhh im well and truly ermmm
well with the insurance already being thousands and my ban last year. i dont no what to do now. i wonder and hope that kitcar insurance will be cheaper? iv got a private plate so not fussed about the q reg as i doubt il sell it anyway

ah crap what a way to ruin a thursday night

unless fibreglass doors,polycarb windows,flip front,fibreglass dash and boot arnt classed as heavy mods

Edited by BenH, 25 February 2010 - 10:56 PM.

[camp freddy]

At least Ratty will be exempt

[camp freddy]

weld a couple of lengths of 4x2 box section between the subframes to
join them together and it is no-longer a monocoque chassis, it's a
seperate chassis and body...... SIMPLES!!!!!!

[England_expects]

This is a very interesting thread!! even scary in parts! My son and I have been involved with mini's for many years. Because I like the job to be right I have often thought about contacting SVA/VOSA but have always resisted with the atitude that if I dont ask/tell then they dont know and what the mind dont know the heart dont grieve about!!

Having said all that we live in a more regulated world than ever before and I believe that EUROPE (the EU ) is determined to rid the world of dirty old classic cars wherever they are (and then we can all drive BMW's, Merc's and Citreon's) but especially in the UK because we are more casual in our atitude towards these vehicles and still love our 'old bangers'

Eventually we will be brought into line, how long can the government resist the temptation to make even more money out of the poor motorist??

Lets face it we even export our love of the Mini by having international meets and encourage people round the world to keep the Mini alive so I suppose that we do make ourselves a bit of a target but what the hell! keep doing what we do best, keep a 'weather eye ' open on those regs and face the bogeyman when he eventually appears!!

[1960Zody]

Ok, This is what our contact at VOSA has to say about flip fronts in general, with a bit specifically about the Mini

There isn't a blanket yes or no on flip fronts.
If the car has an inner bowl welded to the arch then it IS structural ,if however it is 'open' , then the outer wing is considered not part of the structure.
However it is a matter of what else is chopped away or incorporated into the flip front .
On Mini, the wings and bonnet are fine, anything else isn't.

If the bonnet and wings are one piece and that flips then you're OK providing that the inner wing stays connected and is not cut out.
Cut the inner wing out and replace it with stay bays and that becomes a monocoque mod.

How practical this is I don't know because I don't know Minis all that well.

[1960Zody]

weld a couple of lengths of 4x2 box section between the subframes to
join them together and it is no-longer a monocoque chassis, it's a
seperate chassis and body...... SIMPLES!!!!!!

That would allow you to modify the rest of the car as you wish but, unfortunately you now have nno body/chassis monocoque so no 5 points, it's just the same as if you'd modified the shell.

[Bungle]

Ok, This is what our contact at VOSA has to say about flip fronts in general, with a bit specifically about the Mini

There isn't a blanket yes or no on flip fronts.
If the car has an inner bowl welded to the arch then it IS structural ,if however it is 'open' , then the outer wing is considered not part of the structure.
However it is a matter of what else is chopped away or incorporated into the flip front .
On Mini, the wings and bonnet are fine, anything else isn't.

If the bonnet and wings are one piece and that flips then you're OK providing that the inner wing stays connected and is not cut out.
Cut the inner wing out and replace it with stay bays and that becomes a monocoque mod.

How practical this is I don't know because I don't know Minis all that well.

they way most minis are converted to a flip front is this

the front panel, 3/4's of the inner wings and wings are removed

the inner wings are replaced with a bar that runs from whats left of the inner wings (around the shock mounts) down to the mounts at the front of the front subframe

the rest is made up of either fibreglasss or steel standard body parts welded together

the front is fitted to the front subframe/brace bars area and the back to the A panels (the small bit of wing before the doors)

it sounds like removing most of the inner wings and the front panel is the problem

[The Matt]

I was going to draw up an idea I had about inner wing changes. But I did a google search and found a perfect picture of what I was going to draw up anyway.

If the inner wing is modified in any way, is it classed as a modification to the monocoque? Even if people drill holes in there to make cam changes easier? I know a lot of people do that on 998cc engine minis. It saves you taking the engine out to do a cam change. Also, what about modifying the radiator slats in an inner wing to open them up a little? What about opening up the access hole in the bottom for brake pipe and radiator/bottom pulley access? I am assuming it's a "yes" but am still interested in raising the question. IMO, that kind of mod has no more structural bearing than (for example) fitting a full length Webasto sunroof.

I mean, the main structure of the inner wing can remain intact, as per this photo I found on google, you can see the section that has been removed on the floor behind the wing.

I have attached a picture of a normal, unmodified inner wing (N/S) plus the aforementioned modified (O/S) one. You really can see that the lower section of the inner wing has very little structure to it.

I would be interested to see what the interpretation of this proposed modification is, really.

Attached Files

•  inner_wing_std.jpg   46.23K   6 downloads
•  inner_wing_mod.jpg   90.03K   7 downloads

[The Matt]

Taking that one step further, a sketch of an inner wing.

White line shows approximate "traditional" trim line for flip fronts, everything to the right of that would be removed. There would then be a brace bar fitted from the front of the subframe up to the top of the inner wing (above the 4 suspension top mount holes).

The red line shows my proposed trim line, below which I would remove the inner wing section. I would also be retaining the normal steel front panel and the steel wings. This is for an engine conversion, so I need to retain the 5 points for the monocoque if possible.

Attached Files

•  PROPOSAL.bmp   2.3MB   37 downloads

[1960Zody]

Taking that one step further, a sketch of an inner wing.

White line shows approximate "traditional" trim line for flip fronts, everything to the right of that would be removed. There would then be a brace bar fitted from the front of the subframe up to the top of the inner wing (above the 4 suspension top mount holes).

The red line shows my proposed trim line, below which I would remove the inner wing section. I would also be retaining the normal steel front panel and the steel wings. This is for an engine conversion, so I need to retain the 5 points for the monocoque if possible.

I've just gone back to the team for further clarification and the way it stands is this.

My apologies to Bungle, Ishould have said that the front panel can be included in the flip front.

The inner wing should remain structurally sound as it serves the same purpose as the stay bar but is the ORIGINAL OEM and any holes MAY become an issue due to the structure being considered borderline on strenth by VOSA with the front flipping .

So, provided the inner wings are kept intact and un-modified, a flip front should not be classed as a monocoque mod.

Edited by 1960Zody, 26 February 2010 - 09:11 AM.

[The Matt]

I should've explained myself better. In my example of the trimmed lower sections of inner wing, I intend to retain the steel wings, steel front panel, but will have brace bars as part of the subframe structure. These brace bars will run roughly where the red line is. The reason for this is the Vauxhall engine conversion I have carried out.

IMHO, I will retain the original structure of the monocoque. I am merely trimming out an unstressed part of the inner wing. I don't see this section as being part of any load path whatsoever. I understand that I am changing the inner wing, but (again, in my opinion), this would be far, far stronger than a flip-fronted mini that retained it's inner wings. Without the outer wings fitted, the inner wings would serve little structural purpose, I reckon. There would be side-flexure on the inner wing with no wings or front panel there to stiffen them anyway. In the case of the original structure, the inner wing may be treated as some form of "shear web"? Without the outer wings, I can't see their function.