12 replies to this topic

[dangregory007]

I'm so confused

I have a 78/79 1275GT (not 100% which) that I am doing a bare shell restoration of.

It has a diagonal split braking system with the GMC167 master cylinder and no brake booster. I've just bought an Automec brake line kit from Minispares to put on (and Goodridge braided lines). I've been laying them out trying to figure out which piece goes where, and I'm pretty sure I've got it sorted (using the Automec information, and the original brake line diagram from MiniMania etc), however I'm not totally convinced...hopefully someone can help!

Firstly the lengths of pipe don't match those from the original MiniMania diagram, some of them are a few inches out etc. My shell is in the paint bay at the moment so I can't check that they're going to reach. Are they shorter due to the fact they're easier to bend that the original piping so can therefore take a more 'direct' route between joins?

Secondly, every connection is metric except for 2 and I can't understand why. One of them is a UNF male on the end of the long piece going from front to rear (the end that connects to the 3 way on the bulkhead), and the other is a UNF male on the end of the piece between the front braided line and 3 way. The same pipes on the other side of the car are metric, so why are these different??
The kit gives me 2 pieces to choose from to go between the master cylinder and 3 way on this side-
UNF male to UNF male, or
metric male to metric male.

Since the master cylinder is metric I obviously have to use the metric ended one. This makes for 2 UNF and 1 metric male ends connecting to the 3way. I'm not sure if they even make these? Regardless, it seems really strange that there should be these 2 UNF connections....any idea why?

Please someone enlighten me
Thanks
- Dan

[Dan]

An Automec kit will usually cover a couple of cars, in this case I imagine the kit is also made for the far more common setup of front drum brakes, diagonal split, RHD. So the short lines that you think are giving you options for connecting the m/c to the 3-way are actually front drum connection lines for joining the two slave cylinders of the twin leading shoe system. The slave connecton lines should be 1/2" longer than the m/c - 3-way line.

If you find the new long lines are 4" longer than they should be, it's because the kit also covers estate / van bodied cars. The line lengths for the front - rear lines in a diagonal split RHD saloon should be 117 1/2" RH front to LH rear and 113 1/2" LH front to RH rear. If they are 4" longer they are for a van, you will have to loose the extra somewhere. This can give you more to play with getting around the rear subframe.

You might find the new front to rear lines are 8" longer than the old. Some kits delete the short section on the rear subframe and make the front to rear lines in a single piece. Incidentally this short section joins with a metric straight coupler so that might be where your metric ends are meant for. Other than these metric couplings, all the parts should be UNF. These short subframe pieces are 7", you might find them as extras in the kit or you might not.

Can you list all the lines by length and end types? Then they can be compared to the part numbers for the lines on the car.

[dangregory007]

An Automec kit will usually cover a couple of cars, in this case I imagine the kit is also made for the far more common setup of front drum brakes, diagonal split, RHD. So the short lines that you think are giving you options for connecting the m/c to the 3-way are actually front drum connection lines for joining the two slave cylinders of the twin leading shoe system. The slave connecton lines should be 1/2" longer than the m/c - 3-way line.

If you find the new long lines are 4" longer than they should be, it's because the kit also covers estate / van bodied cars. The line lengths for the front - rear lines in a diagonal split RHD saloon should be 117 1/2" RH front to LH rear and 113 1/2" LH front to RH rear. If they are 4" longer they are for a van, you will have to loose the extra somewhere. This can give you more to play with getting around the rear subframe.

You might find the new front to rear lines are 8" longer than the old. Some kits delete the short section on the rear subframe and make the front to rear lines in a single piece. Incidentally this short section joins with a metric straight coupler so that might be where your metric ends are meant for. Other than these metric couplings, all the parts should be UNF. These short subframe pieces are 7", you might find them as extras in the kit or you might not.

Can you list all the lines by length and end types? Then they can be compared to the part numbers for the lines on the car.

Hi Dan,

Thanks very much for that reply.

I think you're right in that the kit is also for a drum brake model, as there are also 2 extra pieces which I figured were for the drum brakes. So all up I've got 3 extra lines - the 2 drum brake connectors, and a spare/optional 3way-m/c piece.

I suspect that the short rear subframe pieces have been deleted, purely because they aren't there!

I was under the impression that all connections should be UNF (as you said also) except the 2 that join the inline connector, but it seems to be the complete opposite! According to the Automec information sheet, all metric connections have a 'nick' in the hex part to identify them - and most of them do. However the braided lines are also metric, and so too are the connections on the m/c, brake cylinders etc.

I'm basing my identification of UNF and metric types purely on the Automec markings, as I wouldn't know which is which otherwise! I'm under the impression that metric connections are narrower than UNF, is this correct? (or is it purely the thread pitch, and nothing to do with the OD?)

I'll measure the lengths after work and post another message. Do I measure from the tips of the connectors, or purely the length of the pipe?

I'll also hunt down the old brake lines and see how they compare (they're in a different garage down the road)

Cheers
- Dan

[dangregory007]

Hi Dan,

Well I've measured the brake lines and its just added to the confusion!
Here are the measurements, the first number is the Automec marking. All connections are metric unless stated otherwise:

1 9" male - male
1 10" UNF male - UNF male
2 16" male - UNF male
3 17" male - male
6 29" male - male
7F 10" male - male
7F 10.5" male - male
11 10.5" male - female
11 10.5" male - female
20 118" UNF male - female
21 96" male - female
Also included in the kit is an inline metric female - female connector, and I'd bought two 3way metric connectors. Just check the website again and it says these 3ways are UNF.....in that case maybe all of those 'metric' connectors I've mentioned are actually UNF, damned if I know!

The Goodrich braided lines seem to be correct, they are:
Rear: male - male (metric)
Front: male - female (metric - male part joins brake caliper)

I've checked that they've sent me the right kit and they have - GB5014. I've compared the picture on the Minispares website and the pieces are the same as what I have.

Man I'm lost haha any ideas?

[Dan]

Yes, sort of. I still can't explain the different thread standards but the line lengths are pretty much exactly right for a diagonal split system with 4 way failure switch, RHD, rather than a diagonal split system with failure switch in master cylinder. Although the part number for the kit is right, I think you've been sent a box with the wrong lines in. As for the fittings, the way I know to tell the difference between metric and imperial is the colour.

[HangAye]

Automec copper brake pipe sets are tailored to fit specific vehicles right or left hand drive. Each pipe is cut to the correct length, fitted with solid brass unions, and marked for easy fitting. Am I right to what I said.?



_________________
Tool Die

[dangregory007]

Yes, sort of. I still can't explain the different thread standards but the line lengths are pretty much exactly right for a diagonal split system with 4 way failure switch, RHD, rather than a diagonal split system with failure switch in master cylinder. Although the part number for the kit is right, I think you've been sent a box with the wrong lines in. As for the fittings, the way I know to tell the difference between metric and imperial is the colour.

Thanks very much for your help Dan. I'll drop Minispares a line and see if they can double check the composition of the kit.

HangAye - Thats correct

[bmcecosse]

Most of the Minibraking is UNF - only connections around the master cylinder - and the ghastly little taper nose pressure regulator - are metric m10x1. I would send this 'kit' back for refund - and buy one that fits. Better still - buy a Draper pipe flaring kit and a roll of Kunifer pipe, a handful of ends - and make your own pipes. That way - you get non-rusting Kunifer - and pipes that FIT!

[thelaughingcalf]

Did you manage to resolve this in the end? I have the exact same problem and also have diagonal rear split on a 78 clubman (drums all round). I agree that I think they have removed that small pipe between the rear hoses and the main line so I just went under the subframe straight to the hose.

However I also have the two pipes which have a larger sized male 'end' on them and have no idea what they are for. Did you work that out in the end? I need to have another proper look but I think there 'may' be enough pipes to finish it all and just chuck those two that don't fit.

[thelaughingcalf]

...additionally to this....

The right rear pipe from drum to union has a normal sized thread on the end going into the union, however the left pipe has a larger diameter thread. This doesn't fit into the three way union. Any ideas on this? I'm quite confused.

[dangregory007]

True, do you have it all attached to the car now? Would be interesting to see if your lengths are the same as mine or not....Yeah its weird that theres a couple of connections that are a bit bigger, why aren't they all the same size!! My kit came with an inline connector, did yours have this? I think that is to join those 2 bits together....

Yeah I'm fairly sure they've just gotten rid of that bit at the rear and just made the long one a bit longer. The Automec data sheet says they make these kits for more than one car usually, so sometimes they include extra bits - eg: in my one it had the drum linking part even though I have discs.

I haven't had this resolved yet, mainly because no one at Minispares was replying to my email! I sent 2 emails over a week to their 'product enquiry' department but got no response, so sent a less-than-impressed email to every department! That got the ball rolling so someone is looking into it for me now I'll let you know how I get on

[thelaughingcalf]

Thanks for the reply mate. Let me know how you get on. I haven't looked, again but I have got the one pipe from N/S/F union to O/S/R drum connected. (A tight squeeze which now goes under the subframe rather than the original over).

I see you theory about the inline connector but are you sure that it connects the two larger (black) connectors? I think it's too small and would fit the smaller connections? Can't confirm though as I haven't had another look.....mind you what you say would make a lot of sense

[thelaughingcalf]

Hi just to let everyone know (if you have this problem) that having spoken to mini spares there is a mistake with the kit and they have some of the wrong pipes in it. I've been advised to send it back for exchange.