128 replies to this topic

[cptkirk]

Turning the track rod - like it, shows my inexperience of setting up tracking.

[e11evns]

Ok, i have been busy.
i have ditched the Gripper diff in favour of the Quaife ATB diff, which improved everything about the car, i cant believe i put up with it for so long!
I replaced the steering rack with a mini spares new item, none of this recon rubbish i was sold before.
looking over all the suspension parts for play etc i found a ball joint about to fall off due to me not using hammering the lock tab. DOH!
however i also noticed that the drop links on both sides of the car are bent! the suspension was setup by Zcars, the links were straight when i put them on the car....

i have no idea....


I measured the bump steer and made a lowered rose-jointed version of the track rod end, which has done wonders for the bump steer, its nearly nothing now.


after tracking back up and going for a spin i found that its still really twitchy at speed (above 60). i have played around with toe in and out on the front but cant get the car to behave at speed.
Steering however now is very good, all that play and crap rack didnt help anything.
can you tell us more about the diff why its better than the gripper ive got gripper and it so notchy it makes the back end skip up and down at low speed does the quaif do this?

any ideas?
please help

[e11evns]

Ok, i have been busy.
i have ditched the Gripper diff in favour of the Quaife ATB diff, which improved everything about the car, i cant believe i put up with it for so long!
I replaced the steering rack with a mini spares new item, none of this recon rubbish i was sold before.
looking over all the suspension parts for play etc i found a ball joint about to fall off due to me not using hammering the lock tab. DOH!
however i also noticed that the drop links on both sides of the car are bent! the suspension was setup by Zcars, the links were straight when i put them on the car....

i have no idea....


I measured the bump steer and made a lowered rose-jointed version of the track rod end, which has done wonders for the bump steer, its nearly nothing now.


after tracking back up and going for a spin i found that its still really twitchy at speed (above 60). i have played around with toe in and out on the front but cant get the car to behave at speed.
Steering however now is very good, all that play and crap rack didnt help anything.
can you tell us more about the diff why its better than the gripper ive got gripper and it so notchy it makes the back end skip up and down at low speed does the quaif do this?

any ideas?
please help

can you tell us more about the diff why its better than the gripper ive got gripper and it so notchy it makes the back end skip up and down at low speed does the quaif do this?

[cptkirk]

Claudio

The Quaife doesnt do that at all.

I dont know how much pushing around of your car you've done but if you've done any and tried turning it in a tight circle you hear the grawnching of the Gripper and the car it super hard to push. With the Quaife theres none of that, the car feels like it has an open diff when pushing it. When driving the Quaife is progressive in its torque biasing (as thats what it is - its an Automatic Torque Biasing diff not strictly an LSD) not a on/off switch like the Gripper. The only downside to the Quiafe is if one wheel gets lifted then it does act like an open diff. If you find yourself in a position where you think that'll be a problem, like proper circuit racing or some real tight corners of a hillclimb then the Quaife would probably suit you more in a daily driver/weekend warrior car. A good suspenion setup should help stop the inner wheel from lifting on a corner anyway and theres plenty of racers out there with them so I dont think it too much of a problem.

Unfortunatley I only drove the car with the gripper in for about 300m so cant compare it, all I can say is that the Quaife isnt snatchy, theres no dramas in the corners and you can happily steer round the slower corners without it wanting to drive you in a straight line.

Just my two penneth...

Edited by cptkirk, 28 October 2010 - 07:24 AM.

[e11evns]

Claudio

The Quaife doesnt do that at all.

I dont know how much pushing around of your car you've done but if you've done any and tried turning it in a tight circle you hear the grawnching of the Gripper and the car it super hard to push. With the Quaife theres none of that, the car feels like it has an open diff when pushing it. When driving the Quaife is progressive in its torque biasing (as thats what it is - its an Automatic Torque Biasing diff not strictly an LSD) not a on/off switch like the Gripper. The only downside to the Quiafe is if one wheel gets lifted then it does act like an open diff. If you find yourself in a position where you think that'll be a problem, like proper circuit racing or some real tight corners of a hillclimb then the Quaife would probably suit you more. A good suspenion setup should help stop the inner wheel from lifting on a corner anyway and theres plenty of racers out there with them so I dont think it too much of a problem.

Unfortunatley I only drove the car with the gripper in for about 300m so cant compare it, all I can say is that the Quaife isnt snatchy, theres no dramas in the corners and you can happily steer round the slower corners without it wanting to drive you in a straight line.

Just my two penneth...

nice one ! next question how much are they? sounds like quaife is the way to go, my car sounds broken even pulling out of a junction and turning either direction.

[e11evns]

and whats the exact model?

[al_reidy]

and whats the exact model?

the only reseller is CPL

They state £550 ex vat.
its a pain to fit but if i can do it, you will.

[cptkirk]

Al & I ordered the one made for the Atom as it is designed for Mid engined light cars.

If you speak to Guy at CPL he'll sort you out. He has got a nice little workshop, the only problem is its in Sheerness which is a pain in the arse to get to from anywhere (unless you live in Sheerness already).

Also if you want any performance tuning he can do all of that and specializes in Hondas, I think the Civic he showed me is running 800+ horses......

Mine cost me just shy of a grand fitted, that was me dropping the gearbox to him & the fannying around he had to do because my final drive holes werent the right size.

Edited by cptkirk, 28 October 2010 - 07:24 AM.

[al_reidy]

Al & I ordered the one made for the Atom as it is designed for Mid engined light cars.

If you speak to Guy at CPL he'll sort you out. He has got a nice little workshop, the only proble is its in Sheerness which is a pain in the arse to get to from anywhere (unless you live in Sheerness already).

Also if you want any performance tuning he can do all of that and specializes in Hondas, I think the Civic he showed me is running 800+ horses......

Mine cost me just shy of a grand fitted, that was me dropping the gearbox to him & the fannying around he had to do because my final drive holes werent the right size.

part number i ordered was
QDF9Q
i was using the standard final drive, i needed to order a set of special bolts as the ones used with the gripper are the wrong size.

[al_reidy]

So... bit of an update.
after months of driving the car and really not being happy with the way it drives.
I drove to Switzerland imm 2011 and it nearly threw me off the road many times on mountain passes, even driving slowly.

i took it back to Steve Hoe in Lincoln (tyres and tech) who is a legend!
we spent 7 hours pulling the suspension to pieces.

the rear axle was not in line with the frame. the off side rear wheel was 2 cm further back than the near side.
rear Camber and toe was out from zcars's specs (given to me by chris).

on the front we found that the caster angle was exactly 6 deg both sides... should be 3.5. Correcting this obviously needed the camber and toe adjusting back in again.

for some reason a castle nut on the front CV's had lost its split pin and the other which had its split pin was finger tight.

it now drives like a completely different animal !

so this is more of a note to remind people to get everything setup correctly and double checked.
from what i can gather it was the front caster angle that made it feel like it was on its tip toes.

[cptkirk]

Al, good news that it's feeling sorted at last.

Do you fancy posting all of the set up numbers on here for others?

Edited by cptkirk, 11 July 2011 - 08:17 AM.

[al_reidy]

Al, good news that it's feeling sorted at last.

Do you fancy posting all of the set up numbers on here for others?

its on another post so i feel happy about sharing it again.


----------------

Zcars mini basic setup

front -
half a degree negative camber each side
toe 1 mm each side
caster 3.5 degrees

rear -
1.5 degrees negative camber
1.5 mm toe in each side

Shock clicks 6
Tyre pressures front 18psi
Tyre pressures rear 20psi

Edited by al_reidy, 11 July 2011 - 11:46 AM.

[benmoffat]

Glad to hear its all sorted now. So you have exactly those figures set up on yours now? Is that setup more for road than track? Im going to be setting mine in the next few weeks, and its not going to see a track but still needs to handle well on the road, not too worried about comfort really though.

Do you think it was (as your original post) due to the fact you took it a part a couple of times, or it just needs adjusting after being set up from new?

Thanks

[al_reidy]

Glad to hear its all sorted now. So you have exactly those figures set up on yours now? Is that setup more for road than track? Im going to be setting mine in the next few weeks, and its not going to see a track but still needs to handle well on the road, not too worried about comfort really though.

Do you think it was (as your original post) due to the fact you took it a part a couple of times, or it just needs adjusting after being set up from new?

Thanks

I had the suspension initially setup by zcars, i did take the frames out of the car to respray the shell after but i cant say i took any of the bolts out which alter those setups. so i have no idea what they were set at, if it was race setup or what. either way with the initial settings the car came back from zcars with it was dangerous on the road.

I made sure we setup the car to the above spec and have not altered anything after that.
In the forum post from Chris with the settings on it, he stated it was the best settings he found after racing for years with it, however i have not been on track yet with it and found the settings to be very usable on the road. its still a handful due to the power and not to be taken lightly but its so much better than it was.

i hope this helps.

Al

Edited by al_reidy, 11 July 2011 - 01:13 PM.

[Shadyfox]

Al, good news that it's feeling sorted at last.

Do you fancy posting all of the set up numbers on here for others?

its on another post so i feel happy about sharing it again.


----------------

Zcars mini basic setup

front -
half a degree negative camber each side
toe 1 mm each side
caster 3.5 degrees

rear -
1.5 degrees negative camber
1.5 mm toe in each side

Shock clicks 6
Tyre pressures front 18psi
Tyre pressures rear 20psi

Just to throw a spanner in the works, not sure if the angles will vary as to what you have Bike engine or Vtec.

I have the 1st Vtec Chris built, when the car was delivered I had the car put on a tracking set up with a laser system at a good wheel centre all I wanted was the print out so I could keep it as a standard bench mark, I’m quite lucky that I have a good friend who is a F2 mechanic and his knowledge of setups is phenomenal.

I said in a previous post about a flat pad to set up your car this is what he did for me.

Note! this was for a Vtec powered Mini running Avon Slicks the car was set up for the tires and track only..

1st he set the ride height, this will vary car to car depending on the height of the arches and to how much roll you have or want.

He set up 4 reference points under the car for the ride height.

Front set up
Toe out 1 mm each side
Negative Camber 1 1/4 degree each side
Caster.. I can’t remember but he did adjust it ( will post when I know)

Rear setup
Toe in 1mm each side
Negative Camber 1mm each side

My shocks all the way up then 1 click off

Tire pressure hot 20 psi all round using Avon slicks

Again getting the tires to the optimum temperature will vary on the make, compound, ambient and track temperature I go out on cold tires at 14 psi do a couple of laps then test the pressures adjust accordingly.

I don’t have any anti roll bars and that will make all the difference hence the stiff set up we also made the car 12mm higher, I need to get some shock tops to give the car some more adjustment as my rear shocks are spring bound. I am in the process of getting front and rear anti roll bars and 55mm shock tops to fix this.

You need to keep an eye on the Mini top and bottom ball joints as they wear and need constant checking this can throw the tracking out under heavy braking adding to the bump steer.

I knocked 4.5 secs of my previous lap times.

I’m not in any way saying this is correct but it worked for me.

Tim..