391 replies to this topic

[Ethel]

I belive its because a flip front changes the crash safety of the car, thats my understanding anyway.

That's not something tested by IVA. In essence that's the whole reason it exists, so amateur built and low volume production cars aren't put off the road by the impossibly expensive costs of crash testing etc.

We'll have to see how it works in practice. The MoT test has been reasonably practical in its application, it's the involvement of the DVLA that worries me. If MoT testers are given a non discretionary tick list that results in a follow up inspection by a technically unqualified bean counter with a clipboard to tot up anything that's not 100% Rover factory spec, then people will find themselves forced in to expensive and largely irrelevant visits to a VOSA test centre.

Thanks must go to Craig and his helpful new friend at VOSA, though his answers do illustrate a few puzzlers over the scheme and what it will achieve. Fitting a flip front with well a tried and tested brace bar design isn't going to alter the structural integrity of a Mini Body shell any more than unzipping all the external spot welded seams and butt welding the shell back together instead. Neither would be tested in an IVA but I'd have more confidence in a bolt on brace bar being of a consistent quality than a mass of untested welds hiding under paint & filler.

IVA is a good idea for new built kitcars but the criteria that would earn an existing car a test should be based on modifications to the actual components and criteria that are tested not some vague and often irrelevent points system.

[pete]

Mark Vickers is a top bloke who has helped me out several times via e-mail with recommendations regarding the steering column and seat belt mountings for my project.

And when you do pass an SVA or IVA all you get is a little bit of paper.



Got this one today on a z-cars mini and you don't know how happy I am. It does take a little bit more effort to build a car to pass the test but if you are going to do any sort of major modifications then it's worth it just to know it's safe and 100% legal.
And if you design your build around the SVA/IVA test then other than the cost of the test it doesn't work out any dearer.

Edited by pete, 22 July 2009 - 06:43 PM.

[Jordie]

If MoT testers are given a non discretionary tick list that results in a follow up inspection by a technically unqualified bean counter with a clipboard to tot up anything that's not 100% Rover factory spec, then people will find themselves forced in to expensive and largely irrelevant visits to a VOSA test centre.

IF being the keyword.

Having spoken with VOSA today there are no current plans for a 'tick if modified' box however they will be tightening procedures to ensure that what is presented matches the DVLA records. Not a specific answer I know but how / what / when is still being formulated. I would suggest that as MOT's are garages livelyhood that they would err on the side of caution and anything that didn't look 'right' may be annotated on the MOT computer which is used to crossrefer to DVLA database.

Something I said and confirmed before, but got shot down in flames.

Nothings changed in my eyes

[garrett3]

We are just trying to help.. The MOT side of this will increase with education as noted earlier in the thread.

This will effect many people and we are trying to help them, please keep that in mind.

Thanks

Edited by garrett3, 22 July 2009 - 08:05 PM.

[ferrit]

Ok had a look at the points systems for the vehicle I propose to fit a flip front to:-

Here’s the score sheet:-
Chassis or body shell (body and chassis as one unit – monocoque) (original or new)* 5
• Suspension (front & back) 2
• Axles (both) 2 • Transmission 2 • Steering assembly 2
• Engine 1

Here’s how a flip fronted car could score
Chassis or body shell - 0
Suspension (front & Back) 2
(Based on original dry system with original type trumpets but New shockers and uprated donuts as these are considered service items so don’t affect the score)
Axles both - 2
No changes to front and rear subbies other than rebushing or solid mounts again service items)
Transmission - 2
No changes to transmission
Steering assembly - 2
Again no changes required
Engine - 1
Retained original A series but basically bore it out mod the head do what you want as long as it’s to the original engine block.

Giving a total of 9, yeeehhhah you don’t need an IVA but hang on you’ve radically altered the shell it’s at the inspector’s discretion.

Confused you should be, the whole thing is unclear

What does this mean?
“Flip fronts/removable front end Not able to give a definitive answer due to the non-standard nature of the conversion. Could be an issue.”

Now I know Mark Vickers is trying to help but I am sorry it just doesn’t!

I can score it according to INF 26 and its fine but you come back to the definition of what’s an alteration of the monocoque, deseaming is clearly a standard conversion??? as is tubbing your arches??? or putting a webber box in your bulkhead??? These are altering the monocoque but deemed OK but a flip front is not as your removing the steel outer wings and valance/front panel. Yet these don't make up a structural part of the monocoque as the car can run around sans front end as long as the front of the subbie is braced back to the remaining section of inner wing where your suspension mounts. The stiffness of the passenger zone isn't affected and neither are the suspension mounting points. All the wings and front end are doing is affectively providing a cover over the engine and suspension components as well as somewhere to mount your lights.

Someone give me a reason I shouldn't fit the CF front end I have paid a large sum of dough for with the technical reasoning why not as I cannot find it.

[CMcB]

Sadly the DVLA doesn't use 'technical' people as inspectors, so the decision is in the hands of someone most likely lacking the knowledge to make an informed decision. Therefore if someone who doesnt know any better thinks it needs an IVA because in their opinion it is a mod to the shell, then that is the final decision and you have your licence revoked and have to have an IVA and pass it to get back on the road, possibly with a Q or current reg or historic plate.

The only true way to find out is to get it inspected by the DVLA and see what happens. If it passes and they consider it ok and not requiring an IVA, other people could use it as positive evidence for their own inspections.

You can either inform the DVLA by writing and hope they say 'no further action necessary' or you could carry on as usual and hope the MoT inspector wont inform them. I suspect that it will take time for the MoT testers to be updated with any stricter reporting, so it could be years until it is picked up upon, if ever.

The question is do you want to risk it? I'd just write to them, hope for the best, and if an inspection is requested then we'll all be a little wiser about the decision afterwards - but of course its not my car at risk is it. Sorry.

[ferrit]

Craig I just want to say thanks as without your help we would still be arguing the toss about loads of this stuff. Please don't think I am bitching about what you have said or done as that just isn't the case , I am just trying to get it straight in my mind as to what's needed here. I cannot be the only one out there with this conumdrum

Just out of interest is there going to be anything in the mag about this?

[Jordie]

Just out of interest is there going to be anything in the mag about this?

Would be interesting, as the article would need to be 100% factual and at the moment, alot of the answers are vague at best.

[tadleysimon]

I suspect that it will take time for the MoT testers to be updated with any stricter reporting, so it could be years until it is picked up upon, if ever.

i think your right there, ive been reading this with interest as a few members of my local club are starting flip fronted projects. i think itll be a long time before this really hits home for most of us. i know its a bit taboo but most of us know people in the trade. for example i know a meccy who mot'd a car in a jard in scotland (the meccy in question has never been to scotland)

if it starts getting tough for us mini owners i think youll find a huge amount of cars with dodgy MOT's. i have to say i think this could be a bit of an own goal for the dvla/vosa.

if their aim to to keep cars on the road safe with ridiculous tests people will just avoid the test rather than conform.

i know this isnt strictly kosher but this is the real world and people break the law every day, how many of us drive around with undeclared mods to our cars and therefore invalid insurance, and how many people illegally download music?

i appreciate this thread being started as it has made us all aware im just pointing out there are very easy and 'naughty' ways to get round this.

[CMcB]

of course there are likely ways to avoid these regulations or just not declare them, but bear in mind, if caught the DVLA is more likely to come down harder on those who they suspect deliberately try to avoid them.

At the end of the day this is just information, what each person chooses to do about it now that they are informed is up to them.

Notify the DVLA and keep fingers crossed, or dont notify them and hope the MoT inspector doesnt inform them.

As Mark has tried to clarify in his responses, most common mods should be ok in isolation, it really is about obvious structural mods, such as shortys and roof chops that will be picked up on mostly. How picky they get about flip fronts et al is anyones guess at the moment. It's very much a wait and see situation.


As for a magazine article, pretty much as much as i can find has been covered here, although i will run something to raise awareness. We will also be watching out for new developments with minis going through the tests and the results and try and keep people updated. Obviously we are not omnipresent so anyone who actually has to go through a DVLA inspection or an IVA test we would be interested in hearing from, my email addess is below my signature.

The SVA is still new and the threat of a clampdown is also a recent development so it's still a learning curve for all of us. I dont profess to have all the answers, but everything i know has been shared in this thread.

thanks

Edited by CMcB, 22 July 2009 - 11:03 PM.

[m20gull]

Well this is sending me to bed exceptionally gloomy.

I bought a (steel) flip-fronted mini van last year with bucket seats, harnesses, hi-los, disc brakes and alloy wheels. It's since been through an MOT OK.

I'm just in the middle of adding a blown 1275 with bigger brakes and wheels and now I'm stuck.

If I do the right thing I tell the DVLA about the structural mods (I've no idea whether they know about them as I didn't do them) and risk them taking away the V5, in which case I turn up for an IVA with no idea what they're going to test or how. If it fails, which sounds likely, I'm left with a very expensive pile of scrap.

What's depressing is the apparent rigour of the system. There seems no option of: turn up with the car for a test, tester says "don't like that" you change it and come back for a pass.

[CMcB]

What's depressing is the apparent rigour of the system. There seems no option of: turn up with the car for a test, tester says "don't like that" you change it and come back for a pass.

That is indeed a killer blow.

[Ethel]

It's still not clear to me that it's that points system they'll use. elsewhere they talk of the body and 2 major components and the engine and 1 major component is also mentioned - though not for exactly the same thing (keeping an age related plate?)

[defmini]

Just read this in it's entirety and it seems that as always the big boys upstairs are doing what Europe want us to do, without telling us in black and white what it is that they want us to do. But i must say that as most people here seem to be against this i would rather know that the car i am driving myself and my family around in is perfectly safe, rather than some bodge that a bloke with a C##PY welder and a big can of filler knocks together. Remember cut and shuts everyone better to be safe than DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry to be down on this but its true and if you think about it you know i'm right !

[tadleysimon]

your completly right, however this law applies mostly to roof chopped or shortys ect. since a standard mini wouldnt pass an iva test is it therefore a deathtrap? surley a roof chopped mini or a shorty should be tested on its structural integrity rather than as a whole car. its not fair that standard items between 1959 and 2000 on a mini could condem them from the road.

i understand this law but i think its flawed. the modifications should be tested, not the standard parts!