391 replies to this topic

[garrett3]

Grassed up if the car does not match the V5 ... still at a loss how this would work, as if you have fitted a Vtec engine for instance and notified DVLA of the new engine size and engine number then the details on the V5 will match the car. So no reporting necessary, and the details of subframe and suspension are not recorded on the v5 for there to be a mismatch to report.

Unless the DVLA or whoever provide a mechanism for the owner to report and record these type of changes how can they punish you for not doing so?

You are correct in that if you have told DVLA of your engine change and its on your V5 then you have nothing to worry about.

The provision is already there for the MOT inspector to inform DVLA of "significant modification".

Again this isnt going to be spax shocks and a set of wide wheels causing you to have an IVA.

Yes you are right that the provision to report some mods to DVAL ist there on the v5.. I dont know how they are going to enforce this bit when its hard to notify them of your intentions?? seems a little unfair.

For instance a K series subframe, donor engine, coil overs, extended flip front and tubbed arches together may call for an IVA BUT as I have read the V5 there are not full provisions for the reporitng of many of these mods exept the engine and chassis number etc etc

I guess this would have to be a call to your local DVLA office who would then invite you for an Inspection... As DVLA are keen to point out the onus is on YOU to make sure you are fully legal on the road and not them.

These laws have actually been around for 20+ years BUT were not readily enforced untill the recent deaths that occurred in the modded 4x4 were a father killed his children due to poor modifications.

Edited by garrett3, 20 July 2009 - 06:43 PM.

[CMcB]

I wrote to ACE (Association of Car Enthusiasts) and they have kindly responded. www.the-ace.org.uk

Responses in bold


****************************

Hi Kev

Nice speaking to you earlier

As an ACE representative perhaps you could give me an ‘official’ viewpoint on this which I could refer back to the Mini community.

The main issue for Mini owners is finding out what constitutes as a mod in the DVLAs eyes.


Firstly, please could you confirm what needs to be declared to the DVLA:
* wheel plan
* body type
* vehicle identification number (VIN)
* chassis number
* frame number for motorcycles

Wheel plan being the number of wheels.

The changes section on the V5C is mandatory and carries a fine if not completed. This also include colour, engine number , cc, and type of fuel.
----------------------------


THE POINTS SYSTEM
With regards to the points system, the above information does not cover the areas in the points system categories, so how would the DVLA know to check your car unless you or someone else had informed them, and there being no requirement to inform them (as above).

Having spoken with VOSA today there are no current plans for a 'tick if modified' box however they will be tightening procedures to ensure that what is presented matches the DVLA records. Not a specific answer I know but how / what / when is still being formulated. I would suggest that as MOT's are garages livelyhood that they would err on the side of caution and anything that didn't look 'right' may be annotated on the MOT computer which is used to crossrefer to DVLA database.


I.e. If I changed my suspension to coilovers instead of standard dampers, this is a fairly significant mod, but the above info does not indicate I need to inform the DVLA. The same with a rear beam axle – this is not stated in the items to declare to the DVLA.

* chassis or body shell = 5 points
* suspension = 2 points
* axles = 2 points
* transmission = 2 points
* steering assembly = 2 points
* engine = 1 point

To clarify re the informing DVLA, there is no means of 'us' ( car modifiers in general ) knowing what ELSE we should notify them about.There used to be a section in the old INF26 form sent out with V5's ( not V5cs) that read " If you feel any modifications you have carried out may call your vehicles identity into question then you should contact your Local Office for clarification" ( paraphrased). To the best of our knowledge this has not been included for over 20 years.

Unfortunately ignorance of the law is not an excuse and the onus falls on the owner to notify DVLA not them to chase us.



FLIP FRONTS/DESEAMING
Can you also clarify whether any changes to the bodywork, (ie. A flip front, cutting the wheel arch aperture, deseaming) would immediately require an IVA in the VOSA’s eyes?

Again a grey area , sorry that there are so many, but it's difficult to gain clarification as mostly the ultimate decision lays at Local Office level and the knowledge of that particular inspector., something which was supposed to be clarified by the Inspection Procedure Consultation Document of some 5 years ago now.

5th item down on the following link

http://www.dvla.gov....tation2004.aspx

The summary of replies may also be found in the same box.

It comes down to what would be regarded as a monococque. In my own opinion it is the shell you would receive if ordering a new body from a dealer. The main structure ,or what is now classed as a safety cell ,would be their major concern ie any cutting that ,in their eyes, would be liable to weaken the shell compared with the crash tested original. As such shells are designed to transmit crash forces through various parts of the structure to disappate them. Therfore cutting a roof or floorpan would be an issue but ,again IMO , radiusing arches wouldn't be. Deseaming is again be a grey area. It was a common mod on rally cars to fully weld spotwelded panels to increase durability and that is the arguement I would put forward. Whether it holds water is another matter
.

What general advice do you have for Mini owners who modify their cars with aftermarket products? Do they need to inform the DVLA of ONLY the items stated at the top (wheel plan etc.) or would owners need to let the DVLA know about other unspecified mods such as change of wheel size, suspension changes, flip fronts and the like? Do owners need to tally up modifications themselves using the points system and inform the DVLA/VOSA or should they strictly inform them of only the five items listed on the V5 (at the top of this email)?
Please could you, if you havent already, explain about this ‘grey’ area.

There was a recent article in Practical Performance Car magazine where many of these points were covered. However the person replying from DVLA was their Press Officer rather than someone direct from Policy Division ,though no doubt they must have had input into it.

In their eyes the vehicle must be fitted with the components with which it left the factory. They specified that a modified Macpherson strut , even if the original item .was modified it was then not as it left the factory and wouldl therefore fall foul of their rules. However changing coils for lower units, changing wheels or upgrading brakes were not of interest to them.

Yes, as mentioned above it is down to each individual owner to look at the points system and decide whether they need to notify DVLA. If that is the case I would only do it by snail mail with copies of all correspondence kept shouldlthere be further queries later on.



From the information I have gathered I believe it is best to try and avoid the IVA tests, so keeping within the regulations (the ones we know about) is the key, if you could just put a statement together to clarify this.


In most caes BIVA IS achievable if the car is built withh the test in mind. We have a growinging number of vehicles passing that prove this fact.


Thanks for all your help.

Craig

Edited by CMcB, 16 July 2009 - 09:06 AM.

[Geehawk]

So are we ultimately going to see an increased "market" for Q registration Minis/Documents then (much like TAX exempt V5s now), as if that becomes a sign that the car has been tested and passed, it will be of value to someone who wishes to perform further mods without having the expense and hassle of testing. After all if it is already registered as a modified vehicle no MOT tester could be expected to know its specification at time of testing could they? and thus flag it up.

What information is recored at SVA/IVA time? For the money I would hope they produce a detailed report of the specification of every major component of the vehicle, but I doubt they do? Anyone know?

[Ethel]

Grassed up if the car does not match the V5 ... still at a loss how this would work, as if you have fitted a Vtec engine for instance and notified DVLA of the new engine size and engine number then the details on the V5 will match the car. So no reporting necessary, and the details of subframe and suspension are not recorded on the v5 for there to be a mismatch to report.

Unless the DVLA or whoever provide a mechanism for the owner to report and record these type of changes how can they punish you for not doing so?

The argument would go that your car, as registered on the V5, has ceased to exist because you've built a new one out of it by changing enough parts. Your responsibility is to put your new, home built, car through an IVA.

There's still some conflicting info about what constitutes a new build, the points list from ACE's reply to Craig above does not correlate with the IVA manual which just states a car needs the original, unmodified, body and two other components from that list to be considered the same vehicle.

I would strongly disagree with the statement that all parts of those major components need to be "as they left the factory". I'm sure the major manufacturers would love to push through restrictive trade practices by the back door and make us all pay through the nose for spares, but what about when they modify parts themselves or specify components from later variants of a vehicle as replacements for older, obsolete models?

If someone makes uprated shockers (for example) that are not fit for purpose then they will be unfit whether they are the only modification to a car or the latest one that just happens to tot up a score earning you an IVA.

Better to address that:
1. Before anybody has a chance to buy them.
2. Through the MoT test that will apply to every vehicle they are bolted to - the logical change in regulations that should be introduced is annual MoT's for all cars.

DVLA don't make the regulations they are only responsible for enforcing some of them: their interpretation has no more validity than anyone else's without judicial process.

[Ethel]

So are we ultimately going to see an increased "market" for Q registration Minis/Documents then (much like TAX exempt V5s now), as if that becomes a sign that the car has been tested and passed, it will be of value to someone who wishes to perform further mods without having the expense and hassle of testing. After all if it is already registered as a modified vehicle no MOT tester could be expected to know its specification at time of testing could they? and thus flag it up.

What information is recored at SVA/IVA time? For the money I would hope they produce a detailed report of the specification of every major component of the vehicle, but I doubt they do? Anyone know?

Yet another grey area, as far as I'm aware they will just provide the DVLA with the same information they keep on all cars. In theory if you further modified the vehicle you could need another IVA. Though, how they would know that an unspecified modification has become another unspecified modification is a mystery.

Without wading through it again, if your shell is unmodified you may well get another registration number from the same year instead of a Q.

[CharlieBrown]

I thought the points system went out the window long ago (so to speak). I was under the impression that only a new heritage shell can be used or its IVA time??? (I think this may have been covered already on the forum). So are they giving old info or was that Craing that mentioned points?? (Confused)

I picked up on this comment:

Having spoken with VOSA today there are no current plans for a 'tick if modified' box however they will be tightening procedures to ensure that what is presented matches the DVLA records. Not a specific answer I know but how / what / when is still being formulated. I would suggest that as MOT's are garages livelyhood that they would err on the side of caution and anything that didn't look 'right' may be annotated on the MOT computer which is used to crossrefer to DVLA database.

So it seems that Jordie was correct and no ‘IVA button’ will appear on the MOT system if ive read that correctly. Just a comment on the MOT form.

[998dave]

I had heard that even if your car was SORN you would still need an up to date MOT in the future, anyone else heard this??

Phil

Don't know where this came from, but I suspect it's absolute rubbish.

It'd mean if your car failed an MOT, and ran out of tax you'd have to crush it immediately? Think about it...!

[Ethel]

They've supposed to have been checking chassis numbers and V5 details for years , if you didn't have one I think it would earn you a fail. I assume fail reports are recorded if you don't represent the car for test and pass. The police would know if they saw a car with no test cert.

[Phaeton]

I'm afraid you're all falling into the VOSA, DVLA dilemma, I've dealt with them both over the last 5 years & involved in forums where other people have lots of dealings with them. There is a national guideline for both agencies & then there are local differences/interpretations of those guidelines.It seems each & every person involved within the process of examining & then registering an amateur build vehicle has a different opinion of how it should be done. Things that have passed SVA at one VOSA site doesn't pass at another there is no consistency. Similar with DVLA I have been involved in registering 3 buggies at 3 different DVLA centres & each was completely different.

But the problems with the rules is they are general rules covering every single vehicle (with M1) on the road. There are so many grey areas which cannot be cleared up unless you have a very very restrictive set of rules i.e. No Modifications allowed.

I have my opinions on what should & should not be made to have a IVA but this differs from other peoples. I have always argued that Z-cars type conversions should have been made to have an SVA/IVA if it's a rear engine conversion. If it was a front engined conversion then I would say it doesn't.

There was somebody on here a while ago trying to sell a rear engined Vtec on a space framed chassis with a fibreglass shell running on a 1972 tax exempt registration plate. I would have put money down that there was nothing on that vehicle that was fitted to the original vehicle carrying that registration plate. Fantastic car, really well put together with all the right parts, BUT should it be allowed to keep the original registration plate.

I do think there are a lot of people taking this too seriously & panicing unnecessarily. I think Garret is right to bring it to everybody's attention, but it's difficult to have objective views when we don't have the full picture.

Alan...

[Jordie]

if the vehicle presented for MOT does not match the details on the VOSA Computer/DVLA database - engine no, chassis no, reg plate, colour etc etc. Then it MOT examiner would abort/abanden the test. This would be registered on the VOSA computer, but it doesnt tell you why.

For example, we have aborted an MOT here because at the emissions stage of the test, the vehicle had insufficent oil level.

There could be alot of reasons why a test may be aborted.

[ncd3]

I'm so glad i read the whole thread! Although when i read the first pages i was like "oh crap" but having read the rest i don't have anything to worry about. As long as the folks enforcing these new rules don't go mad it can only be good for there to be tighter rules on HEAVILY modded cars. I'm sure the people who carry these sorts of modds out are good people and understand their responsibility to other motorists and people and lets face it if you've already spent thousands doing a car to that standard whats another £450 to be able to drive your pride and joy?

[Geehawk]

I'm sure the people who carry these sorts of modds out are good people and understand their responsibility to other motorists and people and lets face it if you've already spent thousands doing a car to that standard whats another £450 to be able to drive your pride and joy?

Not everyone does it on a budget of many thousands.

Many do alternative engine conversions because it is far cheaper than getting similar power from an A series, not to mention a 5 speed box etc.. in many cases an extra £450 represents at least a 25% or so increase in build costs.

Edited by Geehawk, 16 July 2009 - 12:36 PM.

[Ethel]

£450 does seem a little bit steep for what the test involves but yes, an inspection is justified and passing one should add value to your car.


edited to add,

I've just had a nose round to try and find some confirmation that an IVA will also get you 3 years exemption from MoT's. Couldn't find any references but I'm sure I've seen it somewhere that it will also be continued from SVA. Can anyone confirm this?

Geehawk, where did you get the £450 from? The info I've found also lists a £199 fee but is a bit vague about which applies to cars like the Mini.

£199 seems like a good deal if it saves you some MoT fees and means you don't have to bother about fixing any of the ongoing rot for a couple of years more .

Someone must be making a hash of the rules if they insist you IVA your Vtec subby (which won't inspect it any more thoroughly than an MoT) but gets you a 3 years test holiday on your 20 year old sills, brakes and rear subby.

[redhotmini]

anyway, compared to the rules and regs regarding modifying vehicles, we have it quite easy. it looks as if the IVA will only affect a small minority of extreme minis (i.e. spaceframes, bike engines etc) and a lot of people are getting confused and wound up which isnt hard when you're trying to decipher some more badly written rules.

[ferrit]

Not really redhotmini the problem is that it is currently unclear what actually consists of a material change the the chassis/monocoque, it could be a webasto sunroof, or flipfront, or a rollcage or a box for a webber. These are all things that could be said to structurally effect the chassis of the car and would required IVA. But most mini owners would not deem these to be an extreme amount of moddification.