391 replies to this topic

[Phaeton]

Just read all 13 pages of this discussion, some interesting points some very ill-informed points. I've put 5 kits through SVA & I am currently preparing a kit for IVA, I've even dealt with Mark Vickers from VOSA who replied back to somebody in one post. Our kit the Freestyle will no longer be able to pass the IVA from April 2010 due to the position of the fuel tank, we have been given along with some other kits dispensation until that date. Other kits maybe able to redesign to pass the IVA the Freestyle will not, there is just not the space.

I don't know about the legislation mentioned but I can well believe it's on it's way, the IVA was to bring us in some form of alignment with the rest of Europe. I was told that the European Government wanted to make the IVA even stricter so much so it would have killed off the kit car industry altogether, they wanted to include NCAP testing to all chassis#s produced, imagine building your own chassis only to have it destroyed so you can build another.

I also believe that in Australia they have a similar system, if you want to modify your car you have to apply to have the modification & then once complete you have to go to an engineer to get it signed off correctly.

I also think there are other reasons for this being brought in, the loud exhaust brigade are the biggest culprits. Maybe I'm just old, but I never have liked LOUD exhausts maybe my deafness contributes to this, it resonates too much for me. Sorry I digress, loud exhausts annoy people, they annoy people who whinge, they annoy people who then complain to MP's etc. who then tar the whole modified car scene with the same brush. They then think up ways to stop it happening, so they stop getting whinged at so they can spend more time on their expenses claim. Have you also heard they are trying to introduce a noise test into the MOT? each car will have a noise limit set on it as a factory default, if yours is over by xx% then it will fail.

Again sorry I digress & not really answering any questions raised within this topic, but the Green anti-car lobby is gaining momentum within the UK & around the world, they will only stop when all cars are banned & we are all riding round on push bikes.

Alan...

[The_Mistro]

yes BUT we spend millions as a nation each year modifying cars in one way or another, the government are in far to much *poo* to do anything but keep cash flowing around the country! and as we all know, small companies are the basis of our economy, so there is no way they will want to wipe this out! they want to keep the car industry alive and kicking, well that involves more than just the sale of new cars, which to be honest, does less for our economy than aftermarket parts, as the compexity of the engines now means that most "back street" mechanics can not fix them, as there are far too many electrics and computers on it, that it needs specialist computer programes that mainly the dealers have! so having older cars such as minis keeps these mechanics in business, which keeps companies such as unipart in business! this new law is only going to shut companies such as wood and pickett (i would imagine anyway jodie) and companies such as min-its, mini spares, huddersfield spares out of buisniess, as lets face it, who puts standard parts back on to their mini, if they cost twice as much, but dont really do anything much for the engine, when a shiney new part out of the mould part that is cheaper and can do something for the engines performance, weather it makes it smoother, or makes the emmissions cleaner!? i know i certainly dont!

This nation has a history of being an automotive great, look at all of the motorsport teams based here!? whats happened to this country really? are we not interested in our heritage anymore, even if it is a chav in a saxo with a dustbin on the back, hes still part of the motor heritage of the company by showing an intrest in cars! on another note, why did somebody set the cutty sark on fire!? thats part of our maritime heritage! do people not care anymore!?

Edited by The_Mistro, 14 July 2009 - 11:35 PM.

[Pitcrew6464]

distruction of all motor enthusiast interests. completly stupid idea,







is there a petition against it yet?

[ferrit]

I highly recommend reading the retrorides discussion on this which was linked to quite early in the topic. The guy from ACE pretty much clears up all of the question.

However whats everyones opinion of flipfront fitting? Do you think this would constitute a structural modification of the monocoque requiring IVA???

[CMcB]

A couple of responses from questions - enquiries ongoing. All answers from Mark Vickers Eng Tech MSOE MIRTE
Technical Officer
Approvals
Passenger Cars & Light Goods Vehicles
Vehicle & Operator Services Agency
Department for Transport.

Q: Can you clarify when MoT testers will start notifying the DVLA, or has this
already begun?

As part of the MoT check, the vehicle tester must be
satisfied that the vehicle as presented, matches the details provided on
the DVLA database. This has been a requirement since the introduction of
the MoT computerisation scheme. While this does not currently always
happen, MoT testers are being educated to this requirement on an ongoing
basis.


Q: As you can appreciate, a call up for an IVA is pretty much the death knell
for any Mini as it will not be able to pass the safety standards. You can
also hopefully appreciate that the number of ‘standard’ Minis is not many,
hence the trepidation.

While I appreciate your concerns, there are two
important considerations here. Firstly, a correctly modified Mini, can meet
the requirements of the IVA regulations assuming that the presenter is
prepared to carry out the necessary work. Secondly, it has been a legal
requirement for many years, that modifications to a vehicle were notified
to the DVLA. Assuming that this legal obligation had been met, the vehicle
owner is entitled to point out to the DVLA that having discharged this
duty, the V5 should be amended accordingly. Only in cases where the vehicle
owner has failed to notify the DVLA of material changes to the vehicle,
should there be any cause for concern.

[ferrit]

Q: As you can appreciate, a call up for an IVA is pretty much the death knell
for any Mini as it will not be able to pass the safety standards. You can
also hopefully appreciate that the number of ‘standard’ Minis is not many,
hence the trepidation.

While I appreciate your concerns, there are two
important considerations here. Firstly, a correctly modified Mini, can meet
the requirements of the IVA regulations assuming that the presenter is
prepared to carry out the necessary work. Secondly, it has been a legal
requirement for many years, that modifications to a vehicle were notified
to the DVLA. Assuming that this legal obligation had been met, the vehicle
owner is entitled to point out to the DVLA that having discharged this
duty, the V5 should be amended accordingly. Only in cases where the vehicle
owner has failed to notify the DVLA of material changes to the vehicle,
should there be any cause for concern.

Thats not really clearing thing up though, as what is classed as a "MAterial Change"

If you follow the DVLA's own guidelines on its website its the following:-

Changes you need to update
You’ll need to tell the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) about the following changes to your vehicle:

"colour
engine
cylinder capacity
fuel type (propulsion)
replacing or modifying the chassis/monocoque bodyshell
seating capacity
weight of a goods vehicle
Change to engine and cylinder capacity (engine size)

DVLA will need written evidence of any changes to engine number and cylinder capacity (cc). Written evidence can be:

a receipt for the replacement engine
written evidence from the manufacturer
an inspection report provided for insurance purposes
written confirmation on headed paper from a garage if the change in engine size took place before you bought the vehicle
Change to fuel type

DVLA will need written confirmation of changes to fuel type for vehicles registered after 1 March 2001 if:

your existing engine is converted, the confirmation must be on headed paper from the garage that carried out the work
a new engine is fitted, the receipt will be required as confirmation
Change to the number of seats on a bus

A change to the number of seats including the driver's seat may affect the amount of vehicle tax you pay.

Change to the revenue weight for larger vehicles

For changes to the revenue weight you’ll need to produce a plating certificate or design weight certificate.

Change of taxation class to disabled

You’ll need to produce the appropriate exemption certificate if you change the tax class of your vehicle to disabled.

Taxing your vehicle in the disabled tax class Other changes
Your vehicle may need to be inspected by a DVLA local office. You must contact your nearest DVLA local office if you change:

wheel plan
body type
vehicle identification number (VIN)
chassis number
frame number for motorcycles"

Basically anything which affects vehicle identity (ie items with a number assigned - in the case of a mini the colour, the monocoque/shell & the engine.) Or anything that affects taxation classes (engine dispalcement, fuel type, seat numbers etc)

Nothing is mentioned to lowering exisitng suspension types, replacement of sub frames (like for like), seats (where original numbers are retained), wheels etc.

DVLA guidelines for notification of changes to vehicle

[ferrit]

Craig (CMcB) would there be any mileage in you (under your role with MiniMag) contacting the Association of Car Enthusiast (ACE link) on our behalf. ACE have had an involvement in the IVA development on behalf of car modifiers. They may be able to provide us mini owners/modifiers clearer information rather than the party line the DVLA are providing, which in my opinion is at best inconclusive at worst unclear.

Edited by ferrit, 15 July 2009 - 08:56 AM.

[CMcB]

Craig (CMcB) would there be any mileage in you (under your role with MiniMag) contacting the Association of Car Enthusiast (ACE link) on our behalf. ACE have had an involvement in the IVA development on behalf of car modifiers. They may be able to provide us mini owners/modifiers clearer information rather than the party line the DVLA are providing, which in my opinion is at best inconclusive at worst unclear.

Already on the case. Thanks

[dave21478]

Like I said, please fully read the RetroRides IVA thread before contacting anyone. The more people who get involved, the muddier the waters become.

Also, DVLA are NOT interested in any modifications that are not normally listed on the V5. Chassis number, engine number, CC`s, fuel type, colour, weight and seat plan are all they are interested in. Anything beyond that like lowering or bodykits does not and is not ever likely to concern them. They also have no interest in how well the modifications are carried out - that is VOSA`s job, not DVLA, who are merely record-keepers. Everyone needs to understand that VOSA and DVLA are two very seperate entities, with different jobs to do and different methods of doing them. Occasionally, their spheres of influence overlap, and that is where beurocratic problems occur.

Edited by dave21478, 15 July 2009 - 10:32 AM.

[dave21478]

EDIT - just noticed that RR have the same thread as this with the original post visible here....

http://retrorides.pr...mp;thread=63919

Plenty of doom-mongering to start with, but once again, the ACE step in on page 3 to talk facts and sense.

[Ethel]

Great post Dave,

Vosa ensure cars meet the current regs before they are licensed for UK roads and that they continue to comply with some of those regs (but only the ones that applied when it was first registered) through the MoT test.

DVLA are solely interested in registering drivers & vehicles, & collecting road tax. The only interest they have in your car is to make sure it is the one on your V5.
They carry out VICs to make sure you're not pulling a fast one on your tax or driving around in someone else's car (or bits of several cars).

One important lesson from this topic is to maintain decent records if you modify your car as the onus is on you as the owner to prove it is legit. Keep receipts and document your build - with a project thread

[998dave]

Because the IVA is tested at current 2009 EU regulations.

So if a mini becomes subject to it, it needs things like collaspable steering coloumn. A standard mini steering coloumn doesnt do this, so would be one fail straight away.

Jordie

A steering column can be replaced.

[ferrit]

EDIT - just noticed that RR have the same thread as this with the original post visible here....

http://retrorides.pr...mp;thread=63919

Plenty of doom-mongering to start with, but once again, the ACE step in on page 3 to talk facts and sense.

I read that this morning and immediately thought déjà vu!

Mr Saunders was obviously very upset about his Bentley being pulled to pieces and ending up on a Q plate and therefore penned the letter that is now doing the rounds on various forums. As respected as Mr Saunders is in the modding world I personally think the line the Association of Car Enthusiasts is taking is much more level headed. There does seem to be a wave of histeria washing across the interweb which seems to stem from this email/letter. I watch the ACE website with baited breath.

[dave21478]

Yes, you can replace the column, but more importantly - as far as I currently believe - you dont have to.

I dont like saying things without the facts to back them up, and i dont have them here and dont have time to find them, but as far as I can remember offhand, if you take a standard mini and modify it with for example a different engine, lowering, brakes etc etc, the interior does not have to be tested, unless you have caried out major modifications to it, therefor no need to worry about impact protection, edge radius or collapsable column/airbag. I stand to be corrected on the above, but Im reasonably certain I read that in the manual.

People jump in at the deep end and assume that modifying an old car means they have to build it to 2009 euro ncap spec - its simlpy not true.

[CMcB]

^^ From what I have found I believe this is incorrect. If the car is put through an IVA test, the whole car is tested. NCAP is not included in the test, nor is pedestrian protection, but the rest of the car has to conform to 2009 regs as stated in the VOSA PDFs linked to earlier.

I am waiting on confirmation of this, but from what I have garnered so far, you would have to change A LOT on the Mini (possibly even the roof guttering) to pass the IVA.