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#46 Sprocket

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 10:01 PM

Look at it this way, the A series engine has been around for over 50 years, and there are millions of these engines out there that have no issue with the standard bolts.


Just how many Minis do think there are in the world ? sorry off topic just interested thats all >_<


Did I mention Minis :dontgetit: Sorry I should have been a little clearer. There must be more than a million A series engine still in service around the world, and there has most certainly been millions in service at some point in time considering the engines were fitted to 14 different models from 1951 to 2000 with nearly 14 million produced.

#47 Element_01303

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 10:05 AM

...Would just like to say that as a Mechanical Eng. (Degreed, not just a spanner toucher :ermm: ), it is really nice to see other actually doing there research about the theory behind the fasteners and the safty factors involved. Though making for a technical discussion that some may find hard to follow, it is refreshing to see people putting the same effort into their projects and hobbies that I myself do and finding the right answers. Martin, Spocket and Turbodave (i am From Cali) thumbs up on all accounts, and Martin.....I need a new job, got any openings :).

-Christian

#48 Ethel

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 10:42 AM

Since this topic has attracted more proper engineers,

Is there a relationship between a bolt's graded strength and its elasticity - Will a higher grade bolt stretch proportionally less (elastically) if tightened to the same tensile load?

I'm trying to get my head round the relationship between different fastener grades, torqueing them in, and the consequences for the loads on the threads in a component, such as Mike's block.

#49 Element_01303

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 11:15 AM

Since this topic has attracted more proper engineers,

Is there a relationship between a bolt's graded strength and its elasticity - Will a higher grade bolt stretch proportionally less (elastically) if tightened to the same tensile load?

I'm trying to get my head round the relationship between different fastener grades, torqueing them in, and the consequences for the loads on the threads in a component, such as Mike's block.


Ok, to make this a bit simple without getting into the mathmatics too much, the "strength" and "elasticity" are actually material properties relating to the material the bolt is manufactured out of. Now various treatments applied to the material such as case hardening or heat treating can improve the strength but will reduce the elasticity, as the material becomes more brittle. What this comes down to is stress on the material. Stress=force/cross sectional area, thus with no force no stress. As you apply force to a given object, the internal stress increases until in reaches its yield strength, the point before this is refered to as the elastic range of the material, or the region where an amount of elongation or deformation is not permanent and the object will return to actuall shape. After this point the material enters a plastic region, when the deformation becomes permanent, and the yield stregnth decreases from this point until the material fails completly due to fracture or tearing.

To answer your question more specifically, a higher grade bolt (assuming same material) will be stronger due to a stress hardening process (pre-stressing) such as rolling the thread as opposed to cutting, and will not yield as much as a lower grade, but due to the fact it is more brittle will be more prone to sudden failure such as fracture. As long as impulse loading and cyclic stress do not exceed the yield value (determined through practical testing to destruction), the bolt will be fine. However to complicate things a bit more, fatigue plays a part...the closer and more often the yield limit is approched during this cyclic trend, directly affects the lifespan of the component involved, thus a higher grade bolt will be less prone to failure as the force (stress) is further away from its yield point....when designing things this is considered and a safety factor is worked in. Hope this helps and was clear enough....

Christian

Edited by Element_01303, 17 June 2009 - 11:40 AM.


#50 Ethel

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 12:09 PM

Kind of,

It's made me think that the .9 bit of a 10.9 bolt is actually a good thing as it means the bolt will be even further away from failing (going plastic) than the 10 bit indicates when compared with say an 8.8.

I'd think, everything else being equal, that a higher grade bolt would transfer the load more abruptly to the bit it's screwed in to.

Using an example from my area of expertise - climbing.

The weak link in the system is nearly always where the rope is anchored to the rock. If you're using a thicker, less stretchy rope, or there's less rope in the system then the force of a fall will be transmitted to the anchor point much more abruptly and it's more likely to fail. Think bungee jumping as opposed to being hanged.

Of course, there's a huge difference in that you wouldn't want your mains caps bouncing up 'n down every time the crank reached bdc, hence the need for preloading the bolts via your torque wrench.


Next question :ermm: -

What happens when the bolt goes past yeild, does it continue to behave elastically up to the same load as before even though it's now longer?

#51 mike.

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 01:46 PM

Well once the bolts past the yield point, and has stretched, its'll then be alot weaker and since its longer, won't be clamping the cap sufficiently.

Am I right?

#52 Ethel

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 02:20 PM

Yes, I think most solids behave similarly so a play with a bit of plastic or even your chewing gum will show the same. it stretches 'n springs back until you pull it hard enough to break some of the bonds then it'll behave partially elastically up to a much reduced point as the broken structure separates: until you break more bonds, which happens sooner as there are less left to share the load.

#53 Element_01303

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 02:28 PM

Correct, Once the bolt enters the plastic region of failure the force required to further deform it becomes less and less until the bolt fails, this is due to micro fractures inside the molecular structure of the material forming thus reducing the cross sectional area avalible to distriubte the load or force increasing the stress on the atoms still grabbing together thus accelerating failure. Now bear in mind that this explanation is simplified to give you an explanation of the primary component of failure in this case a bolt and an understanding of what is happening to the material itself.

In regards to the transfer of load, and how abrupt it is, this is way more complicated, especially with your climbing ropes as these are elastic materials (polymers) not ordered crystiline solids like metals, for for the easy idea...force is force and when coupled under a torqued preload for the cap and block and bolt....there is no real transfer, there is either load present or no load, unless we start treating this system like real life and model it as dynamic with respect to time, crank rotation, moments, impulse and the like (up until this point we have been looking in more or less static fashion to simplify things) this begins to bring in calculus and differential equations making thing very complicated. The best way to look at it is that there is load and stress present under operating conditions....we use the max value we may encounter as a limiting factor and add a little on top for saftey reasons, to determine if failure will occur, we see if the stress in any of the individual components exceeds the yield value of that given material, if it does we have a problem....

Now a very important thing to bear in mind, it this is true in a perfect world under room temp cond...we have not even considered the thermal effects associated with the engine (ie expansion and thermal stress) or the idea of stress concentrations. The original designers of the A-series engine would have taken these into account so as a general guidline use at least that spec of bolt, uprating will only improve the ability of the bolt to withstand damage and more load....until someone starts casting new blocks..... :ermm: ...oh, and just so you are aware though way beyond the scope of this conversation, and before you ask, when I refer to stress concentrations, This means that nicks, scratches, and holes all reduce the maximum yield value a material has....so when you go to start drilling holes to lighten things up a bit, the stress around that area will be 3 times greater under load....just something to consider on load bearing objects

#54 Element_01303

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 02:31 PM

Yes, I think most solids behave similarly so a play with a bit of plastic or even your chewing gum will show the same. it stretches 'n springs back until you pull it hard enough to break some of the bonds then it'll behave partially elastically up to a much reduced point as the broken structure separates: until you break more bonds, which happens sooner as there are less left to share the load.


Excellent example as all solids (though not ceramics or glass, glass is a fluid so follows other rules) do this to a certain extent, rubber bands or elastic bands as called in this country are another good way to observe this phenomenon....

-Christian

Edited by Element_01303, 17 June 2009 - 02:54 PM.


#55 stardude

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 02:49 PM

by brain! :ermm:

#56 MRA

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 03:51 PM

Covalent bonding.... can't remember my lecturers at what was Borough poly :ermm:

Regards Martin

#57 mike.

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 04:45 PM

Covalent bonding.... can't remember my lecturers at what was Borough poly :ermm:

Regards Martin


That rings a bell from my building materials lectures at uni...

#58 Element_01303

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 05:08 PM

Covalent bonding.... can't remember my lecturers at what was Borough poly :ermm:

Regards Martin


A fellow Southbank grad...small world eh? :) I still think Borough Polytechnic was a better name....

-C

#59 MRA

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 05:34 PM

It certainly is :ermm:

#60 turbodave

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 05:53 PM

Well, I'm 99.99% sure the fasteners I've supplied will work just fine in this particular application (lengthwise), but this discussion has highlighted the need for me to change the wording in my instruction sheets to include a little note about yeilding due to overtightening (i.e. DON'T) and how to check the bolt isn't bottoming out before doing any work.

So, it's a very, VERY long time since I posted on here, but thankyou all for making me think more about improving my boltset - in fact I verified some dimensions last night and as of right now offer a full mains kit of the same grade fasteners. :ermm:

Regards,
Dave

Edited by turbodave, 17 June 2009 - 05:55 PM.





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