24 replies to this topic

[Burnard]

Hey,

Me and my Dad are considering buying a MIG welder but we cant agree on which is best to get.

So could somebody please settle this for us .

• Firstly, which is more expensive to run after buying the actual unit, I mean in replacing Gas, Wire, tips and Shrouds?
  
• How long does Gas and Wire actually last? say normal sizes so 390grams (0.95ltr's) of gas and 5.0kg of wire?
  
• Which Gas is best for welding Mini body pannels, CO2 or CO2/Argon mix?
  
• Which thickness of wire is best for Mini body pannels?
  
• Which would last longer, Fluxed wire (for gasless) or Normal wire (for gassed)
  
• Can you use No-Gas wire in a gas welder?
  
• Also what AMP rating is best for Mini bodypanels?
  
• And finally the general one; What are the advantages and disadvantages of each?

If there is anything else that i would need to know please say.

I know thats allot of questions, but i want to get it right, it is allot of money.


Thanks in advanced


Chris

[Ethel]

It has been discussed a few times but there's even more info on the mig-welding uk forum.

I'd personally go for a gasless mig as they can also run gas and don't cost masses more. In fact you could use flux core on any mig with a few modifications. Go for a welder with a reasonable of power settings (ampage, even though it's not really a word ) higher power also tends to mean a better duty cycle, less time waiting for it to cool down, and it's handy for tackling the odd heavier job. If you opt to use gas, it does give better results - if it hasn't leaked or blown away, then your choice is most likely going to come down to finding a supply.

Since you mentioned disposable bottles, you'll need at least 10litres/min flow rate: a pro set up would use half as much again. That could be a lot of disposables especially as the control valves tend to be not so good & can leak faster than you use them.

[Burnard]

Thats one thing that isnt a problem, i can get both just as easily.

dont you mean that the other way arround, the gas welders can be easily converted to use gasless wire?

Looking in machine mart, i cant quite work out which is cheaper to run, mainly because i dont know fore sure how long a bottle of gas lasts. and i think it really would come down to which is cheapest to run, i dont mind paying more initially for a welder which will save me money in the long run.

Do you know how much the industrial sized cansiters of gas cost?


Thanks


Chris

[daveeeeee]

Hi Burnard,

I recently upgraded

Got frustrated today as another disposable gas bottle died. I decided I'd upgrade to a refillable bottle, went down to K R Tools in Staines and signed up.

£30 something for the gas
£55 something for annual bottle rental
£11 something for some random charge
£50 for a regulator (at least I own something on this list haha)

and £1 for an adapter for the 4mm tube on the welder.


Hope that helps.

[daveeeeee]

Another thing, if you read up on gasless welding, it's supposedly alot harder to use as it's very difficult to see the pool etc.

You'll definately want a reacting mask too

[Ethel]

Check out that link, they have a gas use spreadsheet somewhere. The catch with proper gas bottles is most suppliers charge rental that costs more than the gas if you're not a commercial user. Unless you only do the occasional small job and have managed to rig up a feed system that doesn't leak I'd stick to gasless or get a proper bottle if you can justify the outlay and find a decent supplier.

You could easily get less than 10 minutes actual welding time out of a disposable.

Gasless Migs have a set up to reverse the torch polarity for use with flux core, all migs have some basic gas feed system in the torch.

True, you'll never get as tidy a weld with gasless - suppose you ought to add the cost of a few extra grinding discs

I'd get a bottle if you have a decent sized project on the go, but gasless is the only option if you want a welder on stand by for the occasional repair, I reckon.

[Burnard]

well, i have a boot repair pannel and corner repair pannel to finish off, then boot hinge pannel, rear valence, both sills, posibly both inner sills or atleast some decent patches, both door step panels, part of an A panel, part of the door hinge pannel, and quite a few other patches to do.

I borrowed a Sealy 130amp gassed mig welder from deamonchild today, and i am getting one very well with it, but it is a tad to powerful for the job.
although i honestly dont know all that much about welding, but i can do it, and get a fairly decent weld.

I'm really not that good at maths, plus i dont have th experiance with welding that much.
Could you possibly work out the cost of 5kg of wire, and enough (disposable) gas to match the amount of time the wire would last?

I think i will have to base my desicion on that answer since there doesnt apear to be anthing else between the two types for me.


Thanks


Chris

[jkjaxor]

if your getting on well with the gassed mig stick with it and buy a gassed mig, the quality of you weld will be far better than the gassless,

[Ethel]

http://www.marknotge.../weldinggas.xls

calculating gas is best done by flow rate x weld time as it don't increase if you turn the wire feed up.

speaking of which try nudging the wire feed down a tad if the weld's too hot.

[Burnard]

http://www.marknotge.../weldinggas.xls

calculating gas is best done by flow rate x weld time as it don't increase if you turn the wire feed up.

speaking of which try nudging the wire feed down a tad if the weld's too hot.

we did get it working well, i think the problem is just how thin the metal is in some places after being ground down due to the *melon* ARC welding attempts before it.

Sorry, i think you missunderstood my last question, i would like to know how long the wire lasts, compared to the gas, (ie, 5kg or wire requires 2, 390gram disposable bottles.) I would like it to be based arround 5kg, as i can get both, normal and fluxed wire in this size reel.


Thanks

[Ethel]

I'm saying it's impossible to say with any accuracy as the gas flows at a fixed rate regardless of what your wire speed is. A disposable bottle is only likely to last for around 10mins of trigger pressed time at best. You'll know from experience the wire lasts much much longer.

[kez_19]

Hey,

Me and my Dad are considering buying a MIG welder but we cant agree on which is best to get.

So could somebody please settle this for us .

• Firstly, which is more expensive to run after buying the actual unit, I mean in replacing Gas, Wire, tips and Shrouds? (it will cost more to run with gas as you have to buy gas tips shrouds etc are the same)
  
• How long does Gas and Wire actually last? say normal sizes so 390grams (0.95ltr's) of gas and 5.0kg of wire? (depends on your wire feed power usage etc hard to actually say accurately)
  
• Which Gas is best for welding Mini body panels, CO2 or CO2/Argon mix? (CO2/argon mix is better all round as you get a better weld and is easier to set the machine for optimum use)
  
• Which thickness of wire is best for Mini body panels? (i use 0.8 but that might be a little much try 0.6)
  
• Which would last longer, Fluxed wire (for gas less) or Normal wire (for gassed) (same as the question about the gas really hard to say)
  
• Can you use No-Gas wire in a gas welder? (if it is a welder that uses both gas and gas less)
  
• Also what AMP rating is best for Mini body panels? (another one that's hard to say it would all depend of how far away you are from the metal how good you are as a welder which direction you are welding in etc etc)
  
• And finally the general one; What are the advantages and disadvantages of each? (gas less can be used outside and these machines are cheaper to buy. Gas welders or gas/gas less are more expensive but they come with the option of using both but i would always recommend using gas get a welder that has a many knobs and switches as your money can afford as this will allow you to fine tune your welder to suite each and every job to give you the optimal weld each and every time)

If there is anything else that i would need to know please say.

I know that's allot of questions, but i want to get it right, it is allot of money.


Thanks in advanced


Chris

[stewart]

Ive got a clarke mig 105en turbo i think it is and converted it to gas and it brilliant can get into smaller places then the other welder that i have that is much bigger!
Have noticed that i can set it so that a bottle of gas lasts about two weeks if im in the garage every night messing around

For mini panels and 0.8mm wire its certainly good enough!

As for gas you should go for Argosheild with is a mixture of argon and co2 and is purfect for mild steel

[Guess-Works.com]

Gas...

or at worst buy a mig which is dual purpose, ie will run gasless or with gas,

You cannot use gasless wire in a mig designed for gas, and I'm fairly sure that if you have a gasless mig you cannot run with gas. Reason being the earth is +ve when using gasless wire, and -ve when not, so it must be one which can have the wires switched over.

I did have a dual purpose, and found gasless welds to be of noticably inferior quality....and I use CO2.

If you can, use a big gas bottle, but if not I found this handy...

http://www.diytools....oxide-1000g.asp

It's a 1kg refillable bottle, when empty they cost < 10 to refit.... I have one still which is used as an emergency bottle

[monkey]

I have a clarke something or other mig welder, and it can be used with either gas or no gas, to change you just change the polarity (swap the leads for earth clamp and torch on the front of the unit) and add a regulator on the back. The good thing about gasless is you can do it in wind. Personally my who project is gonna have to be done out-side as there is no room in my garage, hence being able to weld in wind is a big advantage.

Yes the weld is abit more messy with gassless - but that doesnt mean it doesnt clean up. You have to clean most welds up anyway, so whats the difference?