180 replies to this topic

[mab01uk]

What would the New MINI Have Been Like If Rover Did Put It Into Production?....

If still under BMW ownership ........pretty much like it is now as Rover did most of the engineering and development at Gaydon anyway, although without the BMW reliability requirements it would almost certainly have used the Rover K Series engine, instead of just the Rover Midland gearbox mated to the robust Chrysler Tritec engine.

Without BMW investment and ownership..........the classic Mini would have ended around 1997 due to tightening emmisions amd safety legislation with no MPI Mini upgrade to extend it to 2000. No Mini replacement could have been afforded by Rover on their own (small cars = low profit margins)..........if Rover had had the necessary cash investment to go it alone, then the Spritual Rover design prototypes suggest we would have got a Mercedes A-Class style of small car with none of the fun sporting drive or Cooper heritage of the classic Mini carried over.

As Mini enthusists, we were of course lucky to have the classic Mini in production for so long from 1959-2000, mainly due to the typically British lack of investment in the long term future of the brand and the difficulty of successfully replacing something so iconic in motoring history.
However sales figures and profits are important for any company, no car company is in business for reasons of charity or nostaglia.
The Mini sales figures peaked at 318,000 in 1971 declined through the later 1970's, down to 150,000 in 1980 just before the Metro was introduced, then a large drop to 70,000 for 1981 after the Metro. From this point on sales continued downward each year with a small increase around 1990/91 to 46,000 due to the re-introduction of the Rover Cooper.
When BMW took over from BAe in 1994 annual Mini sales were down to 20,000 and Rover were having difficulty with some component suppliers due to the low production volumes, after the end of the A series engined Metro range. AP who built the Automatic transmissions were threatening to stop supplies as such low numbers were becoming uneconomic in modern car industry terms.
Despite the BMW MPI upgrades and increased marketing efforts, sales continued to decline to around 10-12,000 a year until end of production in 2000............although the world car buying public still loved the Mini and its image they were no longer buying it in sufficient numbers.
Production of the New MINI (R50) started at 100,000 per year from 2001, (the full capacity of the Oxford factory paint shop), with further factory investment this had doubled to 200,000 per year by 2005.
Until the recent industry turn down production capacity was 240,000 per year or 800 MINI's a day, but even these figures are too small for a unique car in modern small car production so sadly future MINI's will probably have to share their chassis and components with other makes like a new Fiat Punto, etc. This has already happened with the New Fiat 500 which shares its platform with the Fiat Panda and New Ford KA built in the same factory with cheaper labour in Poland.

Edited by mab01uk, 30 December 2008 - 03:01 PM.

[mrslaphead]

What would the New MINI Have Been Like If Rover Did Put It Into Production?....

If still under BMW ownership ........pretty much like it is now as Rover did most of the engineering and development at Gaydon anyway, although without the BMW reliability requirements it would almost certainly have used the Rover K Series engine, instead of just the Rover Midland gearbox mated to the robust Chrysler Tritec engine.

Without BMW investment and ownership..........the classic Mini would have ended around 1997 due to tightening emmisions amd safety legislation with no MPI Mini upgrade to extend it to 2000. No Mini replacement could have been afforded by Rover on their own (small cars = low profit margins)..........if Rover had had the necessary cash investment to go it alone, then the Spritual Rover design prototypes suggest we would have got a Mercedes A-Class style of small car with none of the fun sporting drive or Cooper heritage of the classic Mini carried over.

As Mini enthusists, we were of course lucky to have the classic Mini in production for so long from 1959-2000, mainly due to the typically British lack of investment in the long term future of the brand and the difficulty of successfully replacing something so iconic in motoring history.
However sales figures and profits are important for any company, no car company is in business for reasons of charity or nostaglia.
The Mini sales figures peaked at 318,000 in 1971 declined through the later 1970's, down to 150,000 in 1980 just before the Metro was introduced, then a large drop to 70,000 for 1981 after the Metro. From this point on sales continued downward each year with a small increase around 1990/91 to 46,000 due to the re-introduction of the Rover Cooper.
When BMW took over from BAe in 1994 annual Mini sales were down to 20,000 and Rover were having difficulty with some component suppliers due to the low production volumes, after the demise of the A series engined Metro range. AP who built the Automatic transmissions were threatening to stop supplies as such low numbers were becoming uneconomic in modern car industry terms.
Despite the BMW MPI upgrades and increased marketing efforts, sales continued to decline to around 10-12,000 a year until end of production in 2000............although the world car buying public still loved the Mini and its image they were no longer buying it in sufficient numbers.
Production of the New MINI (R50) started at 100,000 per year from 2001, (the full capacity of the Oxford factory paint shop), with further factory investment this had doubled to 200,000 per year by 2005.
Until the recent industry turn down production capacity was 240,000 per year or 800 MINI's a day, but even these figures are too small for a unique car in modern small car production so sadly future MINI's will probably have to share their chassis and components with other makes like a new Fiat Punto, etc. This has already happened with the New Fiat 500 which shares its platform with the Fiat Panda and New Ford KA built all in the same factory with cheaper labour in Poland.

That made a refreshing change, someone answering the question in the thread title rather than bickering.
Well said mab , loving your work.

[taffy1967]

Make no mistake that the Mini was still a top seller throughout the 1970's, but the biggest problem was actually getting hold of one since BL were virtually on strike most weeks (I've heard the BL plant in Belgium had to help supply Minis as a result and the thanks they got was the plant was shut down in the early 1980's) and yet these sales figures prove that they produced more Minis in 1977 than they did in 1966, which was the year the Minis profile was probably at it's highest what with the famous Monte Carlo Rally disqualification fiasco: -



But oh yes sales dwindled after the MiniMetro got launched in 1980 and that was designed to replace it completely but never did and yet just a year earlier the 1979 Mini Special Edition production numbers were doubled due to the huge demand.

But with the arrival of the MiniMetro, there was no incentive to sell the Mini in great numbers any more. In fact it was slowly being fazed out with the Clubman Estate, or HL Estate as it became known getting axed in 1982 and the Mini Van and Pick-Up going the following year. So most motoring magazines were sounding the death knell around that time.

And yet it survived and with new management at Rover (namely Graham Day) during the mid 1980's came new thinking and that's why it survived so much longer. Plus it was classed as a good littler earner and would continue to be made so long as there were people who wanted to buy it: -

Taken from the 1989 BBC2 TV programme 'The Mini Is 30': -

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And it also featured in national TV adverts for the first time in years: -

Xmas 1986 & 1987: -

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Summer 1989 to promote the new Mini 30 LE with Twiggy: -

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Okay it didn't sell in massive numbers in the 1980's/1990's, but for similar money people could buy a more modern hatchback instead. But a Mini was still fun and a unique choice and thanks to demand and enthusiasm in Japan, the Mini kept on going and we got the Cooper name back: -











And the Mini Cooper was still quite a bargain too: -

Edited by taffy1967, 30 December 2008 - 06:08 PM.

[sir Jake the brit]

Haha this is getting ridiculous. So Anorak, you're trying top say that the new mini should be exactly the same as issigonis's ideal, which I imagine would be the mk1 mini, maybe even more simple if that was possible? Well somehow I don't think that would work with a modern day car. We might as well be pushing each other about in wheelbarrows.

He didnt say it should be, he stated that Alec Would not of been happy with the new mini. Opposing what Jake said, he didnt say what it should or Should not be..advising someone on their misinformed statement

this is a joke! if he had his way it wouldn't have rallied, thus wouldn't have had a sporting heart and the most famous part of the mini is.......... the cooper?? am i right in saying that??

then if it didnt gain that popularity then would have been super-seeded by the metro and died out years ago? or would some of you rather had that than it run to 2000?? then hardly anyone would drive one, so there wouldn't be all these passionate people bickering on here about trivial drivle??!!


the two post above this are brilliant by the way, thanks you two. taffy & mab01 great work.

happy new year all

Edited by sir Jake the brit, 30 December 2008 - 07:12 PM.

[THE ANORAK]

Haha this is getting ridiculous. So Anorak, you're trying top say that the new mini should be exactly the same as issigonis's ideal, which I imagine would be the mk1 mini, maybe even more simple if that was possible? Well somehow I don't think that would work with a modern day car. We might as well be pushing each other about in wheelbarrows.

He didnt say it should be, he stated that Alec Would not of been happy with the new mini. Opposing what Jake said, he didnt say what it should or Should not be..advising someone on their misinformed statement

thank you liirge

Edited by THE ANORAK, 30 December 2008 - 07:17 PM.

[taffy1967]

The Mini Cooper S did prove that the little car was a lot more than, well just a little car and that no doubt helped with initial sales, especially since it took a short while to catch on.

But yes Issigonis was a tad worried at first because a near wrecked early Mini that took part in the 1960 Monte Carlo Rally (driven by Eric Pitts who actually managed to finish the event even though he'd collided with a truck) featured on the front page of some newspaper or magazine and he was horrified that it would give the wrong impression of the car.

Remember he'd only designed it for the small family or district nurse etc and not to be used as a motorsport weapon.

But once it started carving up the opposition, even Issigonis was amazed if a little bemused too: -



But I'm sure many buyers couldn't give a frigg that it had won endless Monte Carlo's or starred in The Italian Job. It was just a good all round little car that sold well and ran rings around all the opposition.

Edited by taffy1967, 30 December 2008 - 07:23 PM.

[THE ANORAK]

this is a joke! if he had his way it wouldn't have rallied, thus wouldn't have had a sporting heart and the most famous part of the mini is.......... the cooper?? am i right in saying that??

then if it didnt gain that popularity then would have been super-seeded by the metro and died out years ago? or would some of you rather had that than it run to 2000?? then hardly anyone would drive one, so there wouldn't be all these passionate people bickering on here about trivial drivle??!!

happy new year all

mmm, dont quite see what that has to do with issigonis not liking the classic mini

PS: is you believe that issigonis really didnt want them to make the cooper, then you really need to do some reading on him, he was a motor sport nut and a friend of john cooper.
your confusing publicity spin with reality I'm afraid.

you really should read his biography

[taffy1967]

this is a joke! if he had his way it wouldn't have rallied, thus wouldn't have had a sporting heart and the most famous part of the mini is.......... the cooper?? am i right in saying that??

then if it didnt gain that popularity then would have been super-seeded by the metro and died out years ago? or would some of you rather had that than it run to 2000?? then hardly anyone would drive one, so there wouldn't be all these passionate people bickering on here about trivial drivle??!!

happy new year all

mmm, dont quite see what that has to do with issigonis not liking the classic mini

PS: is you believe that issigonis really didnt want them to make the cooper, then you really need to do some reading on him, he was a motor sport nut and a friend of john cooper.
your confusing publicity spin with reality I'm afraid.

you really should read his biography

Thanks Anorak, I'd forgotten about that.

[THE ANORAK]

this is a joke! if he had his way it wouldn't have rallied, thus wouldn't have had a sporting heart and the most famous part of the mini is.......... the cooper?? am i right in saying that??

then if it didnt gain that popularity then would have been super-seeded by the metro and died out years ago? or would some of you rather had that than it run to 2000?? then hardly anyone would drive one, so there wouldn't be all these passionate people bickering on here about trivial drivle??!!

happy new year all

mmm, dont quite see what that has to do with issigonis not liking the classic mini

PS: is you believe that issigonis really didnt want them to make the cooper, then you really need to do some reading on him, he was a motor sport nut and a friend of john cooper.
your confusing publicity spin with reality I'm afraid.

you really should read his biography

Thanks Anorak, I'd forgotten about that.

the whole " i designed it for the district nurse" story was a well planed bit of spin and helped to strengthen the public character that issigonis had at the time. the sensible wise old man who designed the car for safety and then had "the boys" come along and turn it into a sports car.

the perfect sales pitch i would have thought

[taffy1967]

Well yes and as the technology was so state of the art and revolutionary, that alone was frightening many potential buyers at first, let alone if it was seen as some kind of racing car?

[nurseholliday]

I still can't help but laugh when people comment on what Issigonis would have approved of....

Reading a Biography, or 3 biographies is one thing, but knowing the man, or even BEING the man is something else.

I shall furnish you with a suitable example,

In the world of BMX there was a visionary, George French, a British Mechanical Engineer and Material Scientist. Fed up of parts shipped in from the same Taiwanese factory and rebranded 6 or 7 times, or overpriced parts being flown over from USA, he decided to start his own company, 'G Sport'. He didn't sell many different parts, but each one was designed and tested by him in his workshop in Sheffield. A real visionary he applied real engineering to what some may see as kids bikes, but to some it was a way of life and even a living. His line-up slowly expanded until he had a core line of parts. Some saw them as overpriced and preferred to buy Taiwanese tack and just replace it when it broke, but others, not just here in the UK, around the world, swore by his lifetime guaranteed parts. Production increased and he got help from proper Engineering firms in the UK. For years he continued like this, slowly his numbers increasing and increasing even more! Owners of G Sport parts couldn't help but smile and nod at each other when they saw each other out riding, exchanging knowing comments, almost like owning a G Sport part was a dirty little secret. The most famous parts were the Wheel Hubs, they were the main product. Over engineered, pretty much indestructible, you had one for life (I myself have had my G Sport rear hub for 6 years, about 6x the average lifespan of a hub and it still rides like it's brand new).

Then the Cassette hub broke onto the market, George often said he would never produce a Cassette hub as he saw it as a gimmick, an unnecessary part brought into the BMX Freestyle scene by BMX racers who were reaching to Road and Mountain bikes to lose precious seconds on the track.

After years of coping just fine by himself and having a sterling British company, a big American parts producer called Odyssey contracted him to design a new 'Stem'. He did such a great job that they offered to buy his company, and join forces. G Sport would still exist, but with Odyssey's money it would expand. He would be given funding to produce new innovative G Sport products, and in return he would have a look at the current Odyssey line up and help them with their R&D. Production was stepped up and people were hired to help George produce parts how he wished them to be made, with quality and finesse.

There was a problem now, people started to want lightweight parts. Really lightweight parts! While his hubs were indestructible, they weren't super light. They weren't really heavy but they weren't as light as some of the cassette hubs. People who stuck by him all this time, and hadn't switched to cassette hubs were going out and buying cassette hubs. They had enough money to break the hubs and just buy new ones, it didn't matter to them. So he designed a cassette hub. I doubt it was a simple decision, but he made it. The G Sport cassette hub is finally in production after years of development. It really is a long time coming and you can bet how many of his old followers are going to be out buying them hand over fist.

The inevitable moral of this story is, if George had died before Odyssey had bought G Sport, and before he produced his new 'Ratchet Hub', everybody would always remember George French the British visionary in the world of BMX, a clever man, an engineer, die hard British to the end, never sold his company, never 'sold out' and made a Cassette hub and people like me would shout that at the top pf my voice at every opportunity. But that didn't happen. Does that mean he sold out, or was he clever? His products didn't get worse, he kept his ideals, he kept his quality, he just changed with the times.

You can always remember what Issigonis WAS like, but you can't comment what he would have done or thought. Issigonis took that with him the day he died.

[sir Jake the brit]

I still can't help but laugh when people comment on what Issigonis would have approved of....

Reading a Biography, or 3 biographies is one thing, but knowing the man, or even BEING the man is something else.

I shall furnish you with a suitable example,

In the world of BMX there was a visionary, George French, a British Mechanical Engineer and Material Scientist. Fed up of parts shipped in from the same Taiwanese factory and rebranded 6 or 7 times, or overpriced parts being flown over from USA, he decided to start his own company, 'G Sport'. He didn't sell many different parts, but each one was designed and tested by him in his workshop in Sheffield. A real visionary he applied real engineering to what some may see as kids bikes, but to some it was a way of life and even a living. His line-up slowly expanded until he had a core line of parts. Some saw them as overpriced and preferred to buy Taiwanese tack and just replace it when it broke, but others, not just here in the UK, around the world, swore by his lifetime guaranteed parts. Production increased and he got help from proper Engineering firms in the UK. For years he continued like this, slowly his numbers increasing and increasing even more! Owners of G Sport parts couldn't help but smile and nod at each other when they saw each other out riding, exchanging knowing comments, almost like owning a G Sport part was a dirty little secret. The most famous parts were the Wheel Hubs, they were the main product. Over engineered, pretty much indestructible, you had one for life (I myself have had my G Sport rear hub for 6 years, about 6x the average lifespan of a hub and it still rides like it's brand new).

Then the Cassette hub broke onto the market, George often said he would never produce a Cassette hub as he saw it as a gimmick, an unnecessary part brought into the BMX Freestyle scene by BMX racers who were reaching to Road and Mountain bikes to lose precious seconds on the track.

After years of coping just fine by himself and having a sterling British company, a big American parts producer called Odyssey contracted him to design a new 'Stem'. He did such a great job that they offered to buy his company, and join forces. G Sport would still exist, but with Odyssey's money it would expand. He would be given funding to produce new innovative G Sport products, and in return he would have a look at the current Odyssey line up and help them with their R&D. Production was stepped up and people were hired to help George produce parts how he wished them to be made, with quality and finesse.

There was a problem now, people started to want lightweight parts. Really lightweight parts! While his hubs were indestructible, they weren't super light. They weren't really heavy but they weren't as light as some of the cassette hubs. People who stuck by him all this time, and hadn't switched to cassette hubs were going out and buying cassette hubs. They had enough money to break the hubs and just buy new ones, it didn't matter to them. So he designed a cassette hub. I doubt it was a simple decision, but he made it. The G Sport cassette hub is finally in production after years of development. It really is a long time coming and you can bet how many of his old followers are going to be out buying them hand over fist.

The inevitable moral of this story is, if George had died before Odyssey had bought G Sport, and before he produced his new 'Ratchet Hub', everybody would always remember George French the British visionary in the world of BMX, a clever man, an engineer, die hard British to the end, never sold his company, never 'sold out' and made a Cassette hub and people like me would shout that at the top pf my voice at every opportunity. But that didn't happen. Does that mean he sold out, or was he clever? His products didn't get worse, he kept his ideals, he kept his quality, he just changed with the times.

You can always remember what Issigonis WAS like, but you can't comment what he would have done or thought. Issigonis took that with him the day he died.

brilliant brilliant brilliant brilliant brilliant brilliant brilliant!!!
cracking mate, spot on

[THE ANORAK]

not really a good comparison to issigonis.

issigonis was a stubborn old *illegitimate person*, he was sidelined by British leyland who didnt want to use his new 9X design. they only kept him on staff so he didnt give his talents to another motor company.

BL did continue to work with Alec Moulton however. the result.... issigonis never spoke to him again and he continued to push his 9X idea till he died.

issigons really did believe that he knew what was best, and even if he did allow himself to be influenced by something else, he would rarely admit it.

i think you have underestimated Mr Issigonis somewhat

[panelbeaterpeter]

I still can't help but laugh when people comment on what Issigonis would have approved of....

Reading a Biography, or 3 biographies is one thing, but knowing the man, or even BEING the man is something else.

I shall furnish you with a suitable example,

In the world of BMX there was a visionary, George French, a British Mechanical Engineer and Material Scientist. Fed up of parts shipped in from the same Taiwanese factory and rebranded 6 or 7 times, or overpriced parts being flown over from USA, he decided to start his own company, 'G Sport'. He didn't sell many different parts, but each one was designed and tested by him in his workshop in Sheffield. A real visionary he applied real engineering to what some may see as kids bikes, but to some it was a way of life and even a living. His line-up slowly expanded until he had a core line of parts. Some saw them as overpriced and preferred to buy Taiwanese tack and just replace it when it broke, but others, not just here in the UK, around the world, swore by his lifetime guaranteed parts. Production increased and he got help from proper Engineering firms in the UK. For years he continued like this, slowly his numbers increasing and increasing even more! Owners of G Sport parts couldn't help but smile and nod at each other when they saw each other out riding, exchanging knowing comments, almost like owning a G Sport part was a dirty little secret. The most famous parts were the Wheel Hubs, they were the main product. Over engineered, pretty much indestructible, you had one for life (I myself have had my G Sport rear hub for 6 years, about 6x the average lifespan of a hub and it still rides like it's brand new).

Then the Cassette hub broke onto the market, George often said he would never produce a Cassette hub as he saw it as a gimmick, an unnecessary part brought into the BMX Freestyle scene by BMX racers who were reaching to Road and Mountain bikes to lose precious seconds on the track.

After years of coping just fine by himself and having a sterling British company, a big American parts producer called Odyssey contracted him to design a new 'Stem'. He did such a great job that they offered to buy his company, and join forces. G Sport would still exist, but with Odyssey's money it would expand. He would be given funding to produce new innovative G Sport products, and in return he would have a look at the current Odyssey line up and help them with their R&D. Production was stepped up and people were hired to help George produce parts how he wished them to be made, with quality and finesse.

There was a problem now, people started to want lightweight parts. Really lightweight parts! While his hubs were indestructible, they weren't super light. They weren't really heavy but they weren't as light as some of the cassette hubs. People who stuck by him all this time, and hadn't switched to cassette hubs were going out and buying cassette hubs. They had enough money to break the hubs and just buy new ones, it didn't matter to them. So he designed a cassette hub. I doubt it was a simple decision, but he made it. The G Sport cassette hub is finally in production after years of development. It really is a long time coming and you can bet how many of his old followers are going to be out buying them hand over fist.

The inevitable moral of this story is, if George had died before Odyssey had bought G Sport, and before he produced his new 'Ratchet Hub', everybody would always remember George French the British visionary in the world of BMX, a clever man, an engineer, die hard British to the end, never sold his company, never 'sold out' and made a Cassette hub and people like me would shout that at the top pf my voice at every opportunity. But that didn't happen. Does that mean he sold out, or was he clever? His products didn't get worse, he kept his ideals, he kept his quality, he just changed with the times.

You can always remember what Issigonis WAS like, but you can't comment what he would have done or thought. Issigonis took that with him the day he died.

brilliant brilliant brilliant brilliant brilliant brilliant brilliant!!!
cracking mate, spot on

Seconded!

[nurseholliday]

not really a good comparison to issigonis.

issigonis was a stubborn old *illegitimate person*, he was sidelined by British leyland who didnt want to use his new 9X design. they only kept him on staff so he didnt give his talents to another motor company.

BL did continue to work with Alec Moulton however. the result.... issigonis never spoke to him again and he continued to push his 9X idea till he died.

issigons really did believe that he knew what was best, and even if he did allow himself to be influenced by something else, he would rarely admit it.

i think you have underestimated Mr Issigonis somewhat

So you really know exactly how time would change a man you have never met?

If I show you some photos of my granddad and some of his literature could you please tell me if he would approve of my recent haircut?

Edited by nurseholliday, 30 December 2008 - 08:33 PM.