180 replies to this topic

[rendersonique]

I am sure there has been a great deal of debate throughout this thread and after reading a couple of pages thought I would cut to the chase. I would imagine that almost all of the members of this forum are on here because they own a "classic mini". BMW have made a great interpretation of the classic car because it works. It fits all the NCAP regs so its safe, its reliable because its German engineering (sorry but thats just the way it is), and its also retained the retro lines of the original car.

Personally I would not buy a new mini because I am a classic vehicle enthusiast. What we all have to be thankful for is that we all own (or wish to own) a classic piece of British history. If they were still churning them out ten a penny the respect people have for them today would not be as obvious. They would not be as coveted!

[taffy1967]

Thanks everyone for an interesting discussion so far (even if we are bit off the original topic) and whichever side you are coming from!

It is perfectly possible for some of us on here to "see what a revolutionary concept the original Mini was and how it changed the world of motoring forever" but still have a balanced unblinkered view of the new MINI and it's position in a completely different world of motoring today, without us being "traitors" or suddenly becoming unable to appreciate the iconic status of the classic original Mini.

All cars (even the classic Mini) are not perfect and have their faults or become outdated, if anyone can't accept this then surely they are the one who has been been brainwashed. This does not stop us as enthusiasts from liking the Mini with all its faults or change the classic Mini's place in motoring history.

But yes we can accept the classic Mini, warts and all as a fun car to own and almost a family pet. The MiniMetro was meant to be the New Mini back in 1980 and yet many still preferred the classic Mini, so why should we be made to feel guilty for continuing to like it now?

The world is a big place and in Britain it's a free country, so there's room enough to like and dislike what we want without being told how as classic Mini owners we should be grateful to BMW!

As Nurseholliday has put very well, none of us can ever know for sure what Issigonis might think today....................but if if by some miracle of cloning/re-animation he were to feature in a video on YouTube I,m sure if he did not say the right thing, some on here would suddenly dismiss his opinion rather like they did when I found John Coopers comments on the new MINI on video recently. The respect for John Cooper from some quickly changed to "he sold out for money to BMW." (Anorak, however, was very interested in JC's comments even though he did not necessarily agree with what he said), apologies to those that have seen it before :

Is-9aI7utFQ

Quote from John Cooper himself at the preview launch of the new Rover MINI Cooper in 1997, as seen in the video interview:-

"I think its great (new MINI), its a Mini and its going to be the new MINI, its got a wheel in each corner, it looks like a Mini, I know its a little bigger and its had to be modified slightly for the safety regulations and that sort of thing but I think the team at Rovers have done a wonderful job on it actually and I'm very proud and I'm sure Issigonis in the 21st century would have been very proud of it if he had seen it."
John Cooper 1997

Well Alex Moulton has given a very different view of that and whether Issigonis's opinion could be bought is something we will never know?

Other points which come to mind from some previous posts:

Issigonis I think dis-liked anything to do with Germany because of his early experiences of war in Turkey (I have read the biographies) but we should not carry this outlook on into future generations? In the same way my late father hated the Germans because of the effect two world wars had on his life but it would be wrong for me to carry on that as a family tradition.
Anyone interested in engineering or cars has to acknowledge the worldwide German reputation for quality and reliability.

Yes we do live in a very PC world today and I'm sure we don't really hold a grudge against the Germans now for WWI and WWII etc. But racism still exists in many forms and I'm not condoning it, but the way BMW behaved towards the classic Mini brigade made many enemies I'd say.

In the letter posted by Anorak I note Issigonis says "to change the Mini body shape would be fatal as it is known worldwide, to do so would make it just another car."
Is that not what exactly BMW eventually convinced Rover to do as far as possible with the new MINI.....................even copyrighting the Mini shape?

Without access to BMW's Worldwide established Dealer network, especially in the USA it would have been impossible for Rover to have made the new MINI a worldwide success........as happened with all previous recent attempts by Rover to sell cars in markets like the US.

But Rover were only concerned with making a success out of the MiniMetro/Rover 100 and the Mini was pretty much left alone to sell itself. I remember reading how legislation would eventually kill it before it's maker.

I sent a letter in the late 1980's to Graham Day at Austin-Rover asking him to consider re-introducing the Mini Cooper using the 1275 MG Metro engine..................to my surprise he actually replied and said he would ask his engineers to evaluate and see if it were possible! (I will dig it out my archive and if I can find it, scan and post it).

Well I doubt your letter was responsible for the re-launch of the Mini Cooper in 1990 Mab. From the mid 1980's John Cooper was already supply kits to Japan: -



And it was ultimately John Cooper who suggested they use that engine to make a new breed of Mini Cooper after a meeting between him and Graham Day.

For the record I suggested to the Rover sales people on the Mini stand at the 1986 NEC Motor Show that I wished they'd produce a hot Mini with a 1275cc engine and they also made a note of my suggestions

I think the high number of views of this thread (2000+) and others show that even though we are mainly classic Mini enthusiasts we still have a healthy interest in what is going on in the new MINI world, no harm in that and if anyone thinks such discussions are boring or inappropriate then don't join in or start them.................

Well they are becoming a tad boring because it's just the same old arguments over and over again, but I'm more than happy to voice my opinions too.

Happy New Year to ALL on TMF!

Yes Happy New Year everyone on TMF!

Edited by taffy1967, 31 December 2008 - 06:45 PM.

[taffy1967]

I am sure there has been a great deal of debate throughout this thread and after reading a couple of pages thought I would cut to the chase. I would imagine that almost all of the members of this forum are on here because they own a "classic mini". BMW have made a great interpretation of the classic car because it works. It fits all the NCAP regs so its safe, its reliable because its German engineering (sorry but thats just the way it is), and its also retained the retro lines of the original car.

Personally I would not buy a new mini because I am a classic vehicle enthusiast. What we all have to be thankful for is that we all own (or wish to own) a classic piece of British history. If they were still churning them out ten a penny the respect people have for them today would not be as obvious. They would not be as coveted!

Why not?

They were churning them out in 1989 and yet the cars 30th birthday celebrations at Silverstone smashed even the Guinness Book of Records.

So what with enthusiasts coming from all corners of the world, I'd say it was very coveted.

[sir Jake the brit]

happy new year everyone, make it a resolution, that your all gonna spend more time driving you so called beloved cars mini MINI or both!!! and stop geekishly quoting from books on what you believe some guy that designed cars 50years agomayhave possibly thought.

my beleif is if he was young enough to have been from this era his opinions would have been different (they would have had to have been other wise he'd av got nowhere!!!!


pleaseplease please stop fussing over trivia and drive your bloody cars!!!!


+ this thread name needs changing!!!
to either grumpy old men or something!!!

happy new year!!!

x x

[taffy1967]

Well it wasn't for that guy, we wouldn't have had the Mini for over 41 years and BMW wouldn't have a name for their hatchback.

I'd imagine Issigonis would still prefer his cars to be revolutionary, regardless of who made them.

+ this thread name needs changing!!!
to either grumpy old men or something!!!

No Classic Mini enthusiasts fight back would be more appropriate.

[sir Jake the brit]

Well it wasn't for that guy, we wouldn't have had the Mini for over 41 years and BMW wouldn't have a name for their hatchback.

I'd imagine Issigonis would still prefer his cars to be revolutionary, regardless of who made them.

+ this thread name needs changing!!!
to either grumpy old men or something!!!

No Classic Mini enthusiasts fight back would be more appropriate.

classic mini enthusiasts............. fight back.................
lord give me strength!!!
what are we fighting exactly?? other than bloody rust lol!!

i'm a classic mini enthusiast but unfortunatly also a car buff and thuss allow myself to like new cars

erm BMW didnt name there new hatch MINI mini the brand made the new mini under the wing of bmw?? can you not understand its a car brand, not just a car?? thats whats happened as its so ace, its the world smallest indevidual car make.
mini, MINI, bini or what ever its a mini, sorry the name is on the tin (which is about right as they sound really tin-e when you tap them!! and the od noise through the roof when it rains sound like your in a baked bean tin!!) so again bmw didnt name there new hatch mini its mini that named it mini because its a mini..........



HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPY NEW YEARS

keep those mini's alive and driving (was gonna say kicking but that doesn't work..... as its a car lol!!)

[adam_93rio]

We all know that Rover had the original plans for what we now call the BINI!
But what if?...
Would it have saved Rover's bacon?
Would it have been unreliable like most of the later Rovers?
Would they have found 32 places to stick Rover badges like all the others!?
Maybe then, is it better that BMW did it?
Would Rover have ben able to make it what BMW has made it or would it have been rubbish?
Did BMW save the mini?

Just something i was thinking about today as i was stuffing my coco pops!

[no insults]


(has this been done before?)

rover designed the so called bmw mini
it was shown at a concept car show a few years before bmw bought the name mini
they bought the rights to the design aswell as the name

[Matt.P]

BMW haven't saved it, they've ruined it! A cheap, small family, british car is now a big, expensive family car, which is also a 'hot hatch' and soon-to-be SUV?
Plus they're made by a german company, and have ruined anyones chances of making Mini products - clothes, bags, PILLOWS, etc.

Like many have said, it's all reletive due to inflation and such over the years and as someone mentioned before, the top spec mini was just as expensive as the new MINI.
Yep, the mini has got bigger...but what gets me is the clubman model... it's nothing like the clubman, they should have simply called it, the mini "estate" much less controversial.
In all fairness, I like the new MINI as a car, but can't see it as an Icon or even car of the century.

I'll take a simple mk1 850cc A series with back-wrenching seats and an asthmatic heater anyday!
Sure, it might be slow, old and rust as soon as it sees water, but it has character.

[taffy1967]

BMW haven't saved it, they've ruined it! A cheap, small family, british car is now a big, expensive family car, which is also a 'hot hatch' and soon-to-be SUV?
Plus they're made by a german company, and have ruined anyones chances of making Mini products - clothes, bags, PILLOWS, etc.

Like many have said, it's all reletive due to inflation and such over the years and as someone mentioned before, the top spec mini was just as expensive as the new MINI.
Yep, the mini has got bigger...but what gets me is the clubman model... it's nothing like the clubman, they should have simply called it, the mini "estate" much less controversial.
In all fairness, I like the new MINI as a car, but can't see it as an Icon or even car of the century.

I'll take a simple mk1 850cc A series with back-wrenching seats and an asthmatic heater anyday!
Sure, it might be slow, old and rust as soon as it sees water, but it has character.

But the top spec Mini was just as expensive because BMW made it so after 1996. That way the price difference with the BINI wouldn't seem quite so horrific!

[Matt.P]

BMW haven't saved it, they've ruined it! A cheap, small family, british car is now a big, expensive family car, which is also a 'hot hatch' and soon-to-be SUV?
Plus they're made by a german company, and have ruined anyones chances of making Mini products - clothes, bags, PILLOWS, etc.

Like many have said, it's all reletive due to inflation and such over the years and as someone mentioned before, the top spec mini was just as expensive as the new MINI.
Yep, the mini has got bigger...but what gets me is the clubman model... it's nothing like the clubman, they should have simply called it, the mini "estate" much less controversial.
In all fairness, I like the new MINI as a car, but can't see it as an Icon or even car of the century.

I'll take a simple mk1 850cc A series with back-wrenching seats and an asthmatic heater anyday!
Sure, it might be slow, old and rust as soon as it sees water, but it has character.

But the top spec Mini was just as expensive because BMW made it so after 1996. That way the price difference with the BINI wouldn't seem quite so horrific!

yeah, good point made there. Still, by the 90's the mini wasn't quite as practical as it once was, it was seen as more of an accessory, I think this is what BMW tagged onto and used when they produced their mini up until the dawning of the new one.

[taffy1967]

BMW haven't saved it, they've ruined it! A cheap, small family, british car is now a big, expensive family car, which is also a 'hot hatch' and soon-to-be SUV?
Plus they're made by a german company, and have ruined anyones chances of making Mini products - clothes, bags, PILLOWS, etc.

Like many have said, it's all reletive due to inflation and such over the years and as someone mentioned before, the top spec mini was just as expensive as the new MINI.
Yep, the mini has got bigger...but what gets me is the clubman model... it's nothing like the clubman, they should have simply called it, the mini "estate" much less controversial.
In all fairness, I like the new MINI as a car, but can't see it as an Icon or even car of the century.

I'll take a simple mk1 850cc A series with back-wrenching seats and an asthmatic heater anyday!
Sure, it might be slow, old and rust as soon as it sees water, but it has character.

But the top spec Mini was just as expensive because BMW made it so after 1996. That way the price difference with the BINI wouldn't seem quite so horrific!

yeah, good point made there. Still, by the 90's the mini wasn't quite as practical as it once was, it was seen as more of an accessory, I think this is what BMW tagged onto and used when they produced their mini up until the dawning of the new one.

Well yes gone were the days when the Mini brochure showed the average family packing it all in and instead it was being sold as more of a fashion accessory. Or with the reintroduction of the Cooper in 1990, an enthusiasts car.

Either way it was still bloody good value for money until BMW gatecrashed the party in 1994.

[mab01uk]

BMW haven't saved it, they've ruined it! A cheap, small family, british car is now a big, expensive family car, which is also a 'hot hatch' and soon-to-be SUV?
Plus they're made by a german company, and have ruined anyones chances of making Mini products - clothes, bags, PILLOWS, etc.

Like many have said, it's all reletive due to inflation and such over the years and as someone mentioned before, the top spec mini was just as expensive as the new MINI.
Yep, the mini has got bigger...but what gets me is the clubman model... it's nothing like the clubman, they should have simply called it, the mini "estate" much less controversial.
In all fairness, I like the new MINI as a car, but can't see it as an Icon or even car of the century.

I'll take a simple mk1 850cc A series with back-wrenching seats and an asthmatic heater anyday!
Sure, it might be slow, old and rust as soon as it sees water, but it has character.

But the top spec Mini was just as expensive because BMW made it so after 1996. That way the price difference with the BINI wouldn't seem quite so horrific!

yeah, good point made there. Still, by the 90's the mini wasn't quite as practical as it once was, it was seen as more of an accessory, I think this is what BMW tagged onto and used when they produced their mini up until the dawning of the new one.

Well yes gone were the days when the Mini brochure showed the average family packing it all in and instead it was being sold as more of a fashion accessory. Or with the reintroduction of the Cooper in 1990, an enthusiasts car.

Either way it was still bloody good value for money until BMW gatecrashed the party in 1994.

............and at last BMW invested the significant money needed in the Mini, putting the MPI Mini into production in 1996 with major changes to extend its life by 4 years, going against short-sighted Rover managements plans to stop Mini production.
Interesting to read Mike Theaker's (BMW/Rover Engine Development Engineer) account of the Mini MPI development story and how it was only BMW's will and John Cooper's insistence that finally got the MPI into production in 1996. Mike Theaker also later worked on powertrain development for the New MINI.
Mike Theaker on the Development of the Twin Point Injection system for the Mini. Link to PDF below:
http://www.miniestat..._technology.pdf

Edited by mab01uk, 06 January 2009 - 11:44 PM.

[sir Jake the brit]

But the top spec Mini was just as expensive because BMW made it so after 1996. That way the price difference with the BINI wouldn't seem quite so horrific!

the MINI is priced like that, bacause it is worth that. the way it's built and the materials used.
same as the old one, these cars are priced to make a profit for the company, yes, but it is a set margin.

[Sam Walters]

Rover would still be in production, they would have developed the k-series.

Small companies would not be hung drawn and quartered for using the name while making things such as cushions.



The build quality would still have been crap however, regardless it would have been a British car built by a British company. Not a British car made by a German company.

[mab01uk]

Rover would still be in production, they would have developed the k-series.

Small companies would not be hung drawn and quartered for using the name while making things such as cushions.



The build quality would still have been crap however, regardless it would have been a British car built by a British company. Not a British car made by a German company.

Even Ford gave up developing a reliable K-Series for the Land Rover Freelander with millions lost in warranty claims and just fitted a new engine in the end...........now its time to see if the Chinese have managed to fix it with the re-launched MGTF. http://www.landroverdontbuy.com/ (A site dedicated to taking Land Rover to court over the K Series Engine used in the Freelander)

Rover were still being property and asset stripped by BAe when BMW bought the company in 1994 and started investing real money in new cars again (as well as the classic Mini).

Any sensible & profitable company protects its trademarks and reputation from others who use them without getting permission, no matter how small they may be.

As you stated........If "the build quality would still have been crap", who in their right mind would be buying a Rover just because it was built by a British company?

Edited by mab01uk, 07 January 2009 - 08:30 AM.