17 replies to this topic

[jaystar89]

Well let me start off for saying hey to everyone. Ive got a handful of questions, and though searching around cant really find everything i am looking for.

Ive been reading up on types of paint - 2k & cellulose, and i am definitely swaying towards 2K but i am worried about the dangers of using it as the hardener contains isocyanate, which is extremely toxic if breathed in, and expensive spray-booths and air-fed breathing apparatus must be used.

So i am guessing this is out of the window unless anyone has any other suggestions.

I am thinking about spraying my mini wither Ultramarine, Han blue, cobalt blue or Persian indigo (though i can not find this paint anywhere). Again ideas & suggestions would be hugely appreciated - i am looking for something of a dark blue/purple so both me and my girlfriend can make use of it.

Ive purchased a spray compressor, hose & gun;

S.I.P. Hobbyair 210 1.5 HP Compressor

Motor Power -------------1.5 Horse Power (1.1KW)

Air Displacement ----------------------------- 7.0 CFM

Maximum free air delivery -----------------4.6 CFM

RPM ------------------------------------------------- 2850

Sound pressure level dB(a) @4m ----------------- 80

Sound power level LWA ---------------------------- 94

Packed Dimensions ----- 210H x 330W x 490L mm

Weight ---------------------------------------------9.5 KG

PSI -------------------------------------- adjustable 115

Its nothing professional but I picked it up second hand in good nick for £50

I have an amateur background to spraying, interior panels, fiberglass front bumper, tail flush ect, but all using can spray so this is pretty new to me. I understand the use of thinners/hardeners with certain Cellulose paints, but is the process the same - key, prime, 1200key, spray, lacquer?

thanks again, and hey, i am sure you'll all be seeing a lot more of me around the site



Jay

Edited by jaystar89, 09 November 2009 - 04:35 PM.

[dave21478]

Various sellers on ebay sell "2k safe" respirator masks. These are not air fed. I have sprayed a few times with one and am still not dead. Bear in mind that 2k is unlikely to kill you straight off, but the effects are cumulative - the more you use it, the more you risk illness. The choice is yours alone.

[Pauly]

It would be intersting to find out how much isocyanide 2k has, because even though people keep saying it contains isocyanide noone knows how much, could be a drop could be a bottle full.

I know of a sprayer who doesn't wear a mask at all when spraying 2k, he's in a spray booth but even then your still breathing it in.

Paul.

Edited by Pauly, 09 November 2009 - 06:26 PM.

[dave21478]

The information is readily available from the manufacturers - it legally has to be for COSHH assessments.
Last stuff I used was Jawel brand. they have the datasheets online...

paint...
http://www.jawel.co......mp;S data.pdf

thinners...
http://www.jawel.co......mp;S data.pdf

hardner (its the hardner thats most toxic)...
http://www.jawel.co......mp;S data.pdf

[jaystar89]

Various sellers on ebay sell "2k safe" respirator masks. These are not air fed. I have sprayed a few times with one and am still not dead. Bear in mind that 2k is unlikely to kill you straight off, but the effects are cumulative - the more you use it, the more you risk illness. The choice is yours alone.

ah very true, thank you for your input. Can i ask how much paint etc you bought so i know roughly what to buy

[cobblers]

2k is a superior paint - It's much more scratch resistant when dry, and cures in a much better way (after about 1 day it's 90% as hard as it's going to get, whereas cellulose takes weeks to reach the same)
You can buy hardener and thinners to suit the conditions (Use a fast thinner and hardener when working in a cold garage, and slow for painting in a hot garage in the summer) that give you a bit more of a chance of the paint sitting well and flatting out.

I have, and know many people who have sprayed dozens of cars with 2k, in garages, with no masks. We are all fine.
My grandad used to spray cars years ago, and was one of the first people to become ill with whatever it is 2k paint does to you. He was really ill for about a month, but this was after he painted all day for about 2 years straigh, with no mask at all.

Personally, I'd rather use 2k because the finish will last longer and has a good chance of looking better out of the gun. For the one time user, the main drawback is having to use all the paint you mix.

Do as I say and not as I do, and use a good mask. Far better than nothing and sufficient for a hobbyist using the paint once or twice a year.

Edited by cobblers, 09 November 2009 - 09:38 PM.

[jaystar89]

2k is a superior paint - It's much more scratch resistant when dry, and cures in a much better way (after about 1 day it's 90% as hard as it's going to get, whereas cellulose takes weeks to reach the same)
You can buy hardener and thinners to suit the conditions (Use a fast thinner and hardener when working in a cold garage, and slow for painting in a hot garage in the summer) that give you a bit more of a chance of the paint sitting well and flatting out.

I have, and know many people who have sprayed dozens of cars with 2k, in garages, with no masks. We are all fine.
My grandad used to spray cars years ago, and was one of the first people to become ill with whatever it is 2k paint does to you. He was really ill for about a month, but this was after he painted all day for about 2 years straigh, with no mask at all.

Personally, I'd rather use 2k because the finish will last longer and has a good chance of looking better out of the gun. For the one time user, the main drawback is having to use all the paint you mix.

Do as I say and not as I do, and use a good mask. Far better than nothing and sufficient for a hobbyist using the paint once or twice a year.

Great info matey, thank you!

How much paint roughly will i need to cover the mini? i was looking at 5 liters with 5 liters of thinner on a 1:1 ratio.

Id like a nice, really dark, blue or purple. I was looking at the candy blue but it seems very hard & expensive to get what im looking for so id prefer to stick to easier paints. If i give a black undercoat to a normal purple, will the purple come out darker or does this only work for certain paints.

I think i will go for 2k paint now i know a little more £17 for a mask whats reasonable for 1 job.

thanks again! keep the great info rolling

**edit**

Just reading up;

Mirrorcryl ready mixed colours can be applied over sanded original finishes except thermoplastic acrylic. - Sanded fibreglass surfaces. - Washfiller etch - Hi-Fil 2k Primer - Anti-corrosive primer - Zp Primer Shades - Tempo Filler Shades

- Does this mean, i can sand down the paint on the car just now to the original primer & spray this paint straight on?

is there any way of 2 toning this with black so it is black with a purple hint when the light hits it?

thanks

Edited by jaystar89, 09 November 2009 - 10:11 PM.

[cobblers]

You wont need 5 litres!
2k is usually 2:1 paint to hardener, then thin as desired (approx 15%)

As a rough guide, we used 2 litres of paint and 1 litre of hardener to do 3 coats of a full peugeot 106, including a couple of cockups.

I'd get 3 litres of paint, 2 litres of hardener and about 5 litres of thinners (you'll waste most of it cleaning the gun out)

If you are changing the colour, you'll use a load of paint on the inside and the shuts - painting fiddly bits means you'll waste a lot to overspray or just into the air.

The undercoat only really matters with candy or thin paints. With normal stuff you just put more coats on until it's covered properly, but it is worth having a uniform colour underneath to save any patchyness. Short of going into it and trying to sound like I'm an expert (I'm far from it, but I have decent experience) the best advice I can give with prep is to not kid yourself that the topcoat will hide anything. It won't! even a slight imperfection will be amplified many times. 80% of the work is in the prep.

For a first time, stick to a flat colour - If you get runs, orange peel or a poor finish you can flat and buff it to a reasonable finish. 2k goes hard fast, so try to flat it within 24 hours or it'll take a lot of elbow grease.

Metallic colours will need a lacquer, which demands a half decent "from the gun finish" on the base coat (you can't touch the base with any abrasive) before lacquering, which you can flat, but you risk cutting through into the base coat and making a mess of it.

Make sure you have good ventilation - a garage with the door wide open and spray it then get out for half an hour for a brew, don't hang about all day in there.

[jaystar89]

You wont need 5 litres!
2k is usually 2:1 paint to hardener, then thin as desired (approx 15%)

As a rough guide, we used 2 litres of paint and 1 litre of hardener to do 3 coats of a full peugeot 106, including a couple of cockups.

I'd get 3 litres of paint, 2 litres of hardener and about 5 litres of thinners (you'll waste most of it cleaning the gun out)

If you are changing the colour, you'll use a load of paint on the inside and the shuts - painting fiddly bits means you'll waste a lot to overspray or just into the air.

The undercoat only really matters with candy or thin paints. With normal stuff you just put more coats on until it's covered properly, but it is worth having a uniform colour underneath to save any patchyness. Short of going into it and trying to sound like I'm an expert (I'm far from it, but I have decent experience) the best advice I can give with prep is to not kid yourself that the topcoat will hide anything. It won't! even a slight imperfection will be amplified many times. 80% of the work is in the prep.

For a first time, stick to a flat colour - If you get runs, orange peel or a poor finish you can flat and buff it to a reasonable finish. 2k goes hard fast, so try to flat it within 24 hours or it'll take a lot of elbow grease.

Metallic colours will need a lacquer, which demands a half decent "from the gun finish" on the base coat (you can't touch the base with any abrasive) before lacquering, which you can flat, but you risk cutting through into the base coat and making a mess of it.

Make sure you have good ventilation - a garage with the door wide open and spray it then get out for half an hour for a brew, don't hang about all day in there.

Its all alot more clear now so a huge thank you!

Ive sprayed a front bumper & boot panel from fiberglass to metallic poseiden blue and it came out really nicely but it was cans (looks identical to the car color)

A few peices you said i wasn't to sure about 'For a first time, stick to a flat colour' and '2k goes hard fast, so try to flat it within 24 hours or it'll take a lot of elbow grease.'

what do you mean flat color and why do i need to flatten it in 24 hours?

I really like Ultramarine blue - does this come under a flat color;
http://cgi.ebay.co.u...=item5189a3d7a3

I really do appologise as im sure this has been covered a lot, though cant really find anything as helpful as the info on this thread so far so thank you again.

Jay

[cobblers]

I use the word flat too much - When describing a colour, I mean a non metallic colour. The RAL colours are all non metallic (as far as I know), and metallic colours don't need a lacquer.

I also mean flat, as in to sand the paint using 1200 and 1500 grit wet and dry, to remove any orange peel, minor runs etc. You'll lose the shine, but you can get it back up using rubbing compound and a buffer. Depends how picky you are - If you are happy with it all one colour and looking good from 10 paces then don't bother, but if you want a nice shine that looks good close up you'll probably need to flat and buff it, but it takes a lot of time and effort.

All paint shops can mix up RAL colours, I recommend choosing a RAL colour as they are easy to get hold of in any type of paint. The listing recommends the 2:1 paint to hardener and about 15% thinners, which is normal. It might be worth going into a local paint shop and having a chinwag. Most places are happy to advise, and will make sure you leave with stuff that is compatible with everything else. They also usually give you free mixing cups, and sell cheap bags of cleaning rags. Never underestimate how many cleaning rags you'll need!

[jaystar89]

I forgot to ask, whats the general ratios for 2k?

2:1:1 paint to hardener to thinner?

[cobblers]

I forgot to ask, whats the general ratios for 2k?

2:1:1 paint to hardener to thinner?

2:1 paint to hardener, then about 10/15% thinners on top. I mix the paint and hardener, then add thinners bit by bit til I'm happy with the thickness of it. Best way I can describe it is like "a bit thicker than milk" but I'm sure someone else will describe it better than I can!

[jaystar89]

I use the word flat too much - When describing a colour, I mean a non metallic colour. The RAL colours are all non metallic (as far as I know), and metallic colours don't need a lacquer.

I also mean flat, as in to sand the paint using 1200 and 1500 grit wet and dry, to remove any orange peel, minor runs etc. You'll lose the shine, but you can get it back up using rubbing compound and a buffer. Depends how picky you are - If you are happy with it all one colour and looking good from 10 paces then don't bother, but if you want a nice shine that looks good close up you'll probably need to flat and buff it, but it takes a lot of time and effort.

All paint shops can mix up RAL colours, I recommend choosing a RAL colour as they are easy to get hold of in any type of paint. The listing recommends the 2:1 paint to hardener and about 15% thinners, which is normal. It might be worth going into a local paint shop and having a chinwag. Most places are happy to advise, and will make sure you leave with stuff that is compatible with everything else. They also usually give you free mixing cups, and sell cheap bags of cleaning rags. Never underestimate how many cleaning rags you'll need!

Ahh got you! Is the color in that add RAL (or flat)? what would you recommend for this color, undercoat or primmer?

the mini i have bought is red, purple and gray (gray being primer that has not been painted over) - the red is the Org color but im pretty sure i want to change it from red as i am personally not a huge fan of red.

Would i be best following this process;

Sanding down at 400 wet grit untill the paint is all back to base
Fully spray with primmer (possibly wont need this due to spraying over base color?)
Sand 1200 lightly for stick
Fully spray - in and out - in new color
Fully spray lacquer in and out
wax & polish?

[jaystar89]

possible outcome;

http://www.flickr.co...man/2666095303/

opinions?

[cobblers]

RAL is a european colour standard - IE RAL 7025 is the same dark grey anywhere. It's an industry standard, so you can get RAL 7025 2k, celly, enamel and even powder coat, and they will all be very close to the same colour.
Aim for a primer that is similar in colour to the topcoat, but don't go mad. 2k covers pretty well, so the main thing is to just get all the primer the same colour, and nice and flat.

If I was faced with a mini in all sorts of colours, I would ~400 grit it all back and put a coat of high build primer on, then a light dusting of an aerosol can as a "guide coat" then use more 400 grit to flat this back, with the guide coat showing any high or low spots that need attention. I'd probably have to do this stage 2 or 3 times, and then flat back with ~600 before the final colour.

Remember your 2k safe mask, and good ventilation. The stuff IS poisonous, but the amount you'll ingest is a lot less than will cause an issue in 99% of people.

Practice on some spare panels first, to get your gun and mix setup right, and make sure the paint doesn't affect you. I've never known it to, but then again people are allergic to all sorts of things. Most people can eat scampi and chips, but if I do, my throat itches and my tongue swells up. If you have any worries, just use cellulose instead. It smells nicer, is easier to flat but it takes ages to harden fully, and is never going to be as durable as a 2k job.


edit: The paint on that mini is a pearlescent finish. Like a metallic, it needs lacquering and is going to be hard work to spray. I'd recommend sticking to a non metallic colour for your first go.

Edited by cobblers, 09 November 2009 - 11:14 PM.